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Transcript
00:00:00Anna Stoppato: Cloud.
00:05:790Anna Stoppato: Faccio la praaba mi crafono?
00:08:460Anna Stoppato: Conciona? Conciona? Yes.
00:11:500Anna Stoppato: That one could be sold by the school board.
00:19:960Anna Stoppato: Pravame Krafana? Pravim Krafana?
00:26:730Anna Stoppato: Sorry, since the first lesson, was not, recorded.
00:33:780Anna Stoppato: Okay. Okay, so… So we can start. You can see something? No, not yet. We forgot the last link. The last thing.
00:42:550Anna Stoppato: Just one.
00:44:80Anna Stoppato: You are both. Something is happening.
00:54:990Anna Stoppato: I worked at it.
01:03:910Anna Stoppato: We have downtown Philly.
01:08:620Anna Stoppato: Okay, so… Is everything working? You ready to go? Yeah, yeah. Okay.
01:37:40Anna Stoppato: And here we are. Good afternoon!
01:39:250Anna Stoppato: Good afternoon. So, glad to be here with you. I mean, you are students from the…
01:47:280Anna Stoppato: Great. So, what topics are you studying in this moment?
01:52:970Anna Stoppato: What topics are you… what lecture are you studying this… in this period? I mean, it's… Whoa!
02:08:259Anna Stoppato: Great. So, how far is the graduation time?
02:12:640Anna Stoppato: Stealing, I love.
02:15:980Anna Stoppato: Okay, that's fine. Okay, so I… I put myself in the, I mean, final user… uses of hydrogen with my… with my speech. I introduced myself, I'm Paolo Buglia.
02:28:790Anna Stoppato: I work in think and theory in Trieste. I graduated in engineering, but in Prieste. Nobody's perfect.
02:36:430Anna Stoppato: Nobody's perfect.
02:38:250Anna Stoppato: In electrical engineering, and hydrogen was not on the spot at the time.
02:43:720Anna Stoppato: So, it's something that, came out quite, quite, quite a few times ago. But, in, I've been working in clinical care first, after a short period in DNI,
02:58:310Anna Stoppato: Entering NI after having graduated at, any corporate university, that's what I'm at Tay. So I…
03:08:600Anna Stoppato: I graduated there with an MBA in E&I, then I worked at ENI, then I come back to my home city, which was Trieste, and I joined the R&D department of Incai. That changed over time in 20… more than 25 years. No, 20 years, how many years? I joined 20…
03:28:620Anna Stoppato: 2004, so it's, yes, more or less 20 years. It changed a lot because, I mean, technologies are changing so much, and there was a lot to do, but in the last, I would say, 6 or 7 years, I got deeply involved in the hydrogen sector. So, I… I… I'm attending the technical meetings, technical working groups on
03:53:460Anna Stoppato: of H2IT, which is the Italian Association for Hydrogen.
03:58:190Anna Stoppato: And, also the technical meetings in, Hydrogen Europe, which is the European Association of Hydrogen, Industry.
04:09:280Anna Stoppato: And, here, in Think and Theory, I'm also a compliance manager for, for a very important project, which is a way to the Future.
04:19:620Anna Stoppato: This project is, is dealing, as we can see at the end of this lecture, is dealing with all the application of hydrogen technology on borderships.
04:31:240Anna Stoppato: So, first of all, who of you knows frequent theory?
04:35:900Anna Stoppato: Nearly everybody, okay, 50-50. But don't worry, I have a couple of slides to let you know what FinCanteri is.
04:43:110Anna Stoppato: Oh, okay, I have to get a cast, okay. So, we are…
04:48:480Anna Stoppato: a leading group with an international presence. We were born in Italy, but then we expanded a lot, and now we have presence in many, many countries, and around the globe.
05:02:650Anna Stoppato: We are a company which is, totaling, last year, totaled $9.2 billion of revenue.
05:09:270Anna Stoppato: We have 18 shipyards in 3 continents, and we have about 24,000 employees, of which 50% are in Italy. I don't bother you with further details or data about FinCity, because there will be a short presentation from a colleague of mine of HR later on today. But, to let you know what we are doing, because we are a manufacturing company, it are mainly Italian manufacturing
05:34:230Anna Stoppato: company, Big Group, which is active in the sector of cruise, cruise building.
05:39:220Anna Stoppato: So, large ships with high technological value. Defense.
05:43:470Anna Stoppato: mainly for Italian Navy, but also for foreign navies, offshore, and what is coming out is super important in this period, underwater. So, for the experience we gather in digitalization and in building submarines in the Naval Defense and other IT systems for visa, or for offshore, for example.
06:02:200Anna Stoppato: The system for automatic positioning of an offshore ship that must stand in a certain position despite tides, waves, and winds.
06:11:890Anna Stoppato: Those technologies are also very important if you are building an underwater drone that may… maybe is checking and controlling what's happening on the
06:22:450Anna Stoppato: seabed infrastructure.
06:25:570Anna Stoppato: And then we have some other, more, small business. So, we released, this year the new industrial plan, so it's, to react to the market and what is the new evolutions of the market, to evolve, like in the underwater domine, to ex… and the new technologies and new fuels and etc.
06:45:920Anna Stoppato: To further expand to further expand the business, and to lead with high technological capabilities.
06:54:50Anna Stoppato: Why Paul is saying all these kind of things and etc? Well, because hydrogen and hydrogen technologies are one of these.
07:01:140Anna Stoppato: these technologies, and you will see soon how difficult it is to manage hydrogen on board a ship. So, hydrogen is difficult per se.
07:12:880Anna Stoppato: probably somebody said to you that it's easy to produce, and etc, etc, but no, it's not so easy. Even more, it is difficult to manage when you are on board a ship.
07:24:590Anna Stoppato: So, our target is to increase production capacity in the yards in Italy and abroad, to have a productivity increase, but especially strengthening ongoing strategic project. Hydrogen is one of these streamlines. So.
07:41:270Anna Stoppato: just something…
07:42:920Anna Stoppato: please consider these few words that I'm giving about, think and theory and the technologies, how we address technologies, think and theory, as a kind of way to see, then, what are the problems that I'm going to say, to tell you regarding applying hydrogen on board ships later on, why
08:01:500Anna Stoppato: Maritime is dealing with hydrogen, and what are the methods that we are using in order to make it a feasible implementation on, on board ships. So…
08:12:760Anna Stoppato: still, I want to continue on my company, but believe me, give me credit, at the end of this… not the end, sorry, in a few slides, there will be hydrogen everywhere, so…
08:23:320Anna Stoppato: What is very important for us is to be highly… to have high flexibility. High flexibility means that we have different customers. These different customers are requesting more or less everything, and we need to customize.
08:37:640Anna Stoppato: each and every product in order to meet customer expectations. That means not satisfaction itself, but they are coming with different operational profiles. A ship sailing in Norway is not the same ship sailing in the Caribbean. They have different requirements. So that when we receive a contract for a new ship, I mean, it's nearly totally new.
09:02:560Anna Stoppato: have to start the design process again and again and again each time you receive a contract. It's not like Fiat, Volkswagen, or both, if you like it, if you like Porsches.
09:12:610Anna Stoppato: that once you have the final design, then, of course, you can decide the color of the carpet, but more or less it is the same, the production line is the same. Here, we really need to customize, and the first ship that we produced
09:29:670Anna Stoppato: Built, with hydrogen had no precedent before.
09:33:390Anna Stoppato: at completely different, different, technologies. So, we are global and flexible from the, map you said before, and what is super important for us,
09:46:410Anna Stoppato: I mean, we are not… we are in the hydrogen sector because we are end users, but we do not produce electrolyzers, we do not produce fuel cells, we do not deal with transporting hydrogen. So, I mean, it's something that we go on the market and see what's outside. What is the part is difficult for us?
10:10:510Anna Stoppato: Well, very easy. It's difficult for us when we take this technology and put them on board.
10:17:780Anna Stoppato: So, what we call modernization of technologies for maritime application. We take a few cells and we put it on board. It's not just… you don't need just a screwdriver in order to do it. You need to adapt all these technologies to the maritime
10:35:610Anna Stoppato: to the money environment. And, yes, we are best in class, we are number one.
10:40:10Anna Stoppato: For some products we are delivering, we are number one in the world in terms of final products and technologies that we are addressing.
10:51:40Anna Stoppato: Siora? Okay.
10:55:220Anna Stoppato: So, what is, what we… is the work that we do in Think and Theory? We start from, ship owner specifications, and then we deliver a final product that, is, I mean.
11:11:690Anna Stoppato: More or less, a large cruise ship may cost in around 1 billion. If it's a small crew, it's even less, it is larger, a bit more, but that is in the order of magnitude.
11:23:240Anna Stoppato: And of course, differently from other sectors, for example, automotive, you cannot afford to have a cruise ship stared outside in the… outside the yard in order to test new technologies. So we have to develop these technologies with our capabilities at small scale.
11:42:810Anna Stoppato: On shore, and then to take the big jumper, and to go directly on the final product being delivered to the market, with no app trial before.
11:54:690Anna Stoppato: So, it's like painting, at first, one, one big on a canva, on a white counter, a wonderful painter, and you know that you, I mean, you don't have another one.
12:06:860Anna Stoppato: And with another very time constraint, which is time constraint, the moment that the contract is signed, the ship owners say, oh, great, that's the delivery date in 2027, 1st of May 2027, total inventing.
12:21:980Anna Stoppato: Great, so I'm starting to sell, cruise experience to all the passengers for the 2nd of May.
12:32:200Anna Stoppato: This means that we… if we are going to be delayed in delivery by one day, this is costing us a lot. Really a lot. Not only for us, also for our competitors, because this is the market. So, but the message is, we cannot fail the delivery.
12:49:840Anna Stoppato: If we talk to our project managers.
12:52:290Anna Stoppato: They have a delivery date, and that is the date.
12:55:230Anna Stoppato: They will do whatever it takes in order to deliver that data to the ship. If you have a…
13:02:560Anna Stoppato: new technologies to be installed on board, tested, and verified, and etc. Good luck, because it's going to be more difficult, but we have the best engineers, and maybe one of them in the future is, listening in this, this lecture. And, we know that, we know that, that there will be problems, but we can
13:22:230Anna Stoppato: address them, and solve them, and etc, and deliver the results. So, what are we doing is, I mean, is to integrate technologies on board ship with a time frame which is very, very, very short.
13:38:670Anna Stoppato: I mean, believe me, I mean, we're talking of gigantic ships, and it is… they take 12 months for design and development, then 10, 70 months for hull assembly, so on the dry dock, and then…
13:54:800Anna Stoppato: Got it.
13:57:560Anna Stoppato: Okay, I can move it. Another year for outfitting, not in the dry dock, but on the pier, close to the dry dock, to outfit the ship, see trials, and deliver it to the… to the… to the… to the customer. So, 1, 2, 3…
14:15:460Anna Stoppato: three and a half years from taking a blank sheet and starting drawing the shape. Of course, it will not be completely blank, but that's… that's the pressure that we have.
14:29:60Anna Stoppato: In the next slide, you will see why the sector, maritime sector, is so fond of taking care of, of emissions. I mean, and this tends to be to look at different, different technologies, different fuels.
14:43:340Anna Stoppato: This is our roadmap. We have already worked on,
14:47:650Anna Stoppato: on different technology, MVL and G. I mean, in the past, this time there was a heavy fuel alloy. Heavy fuel alloy, I don't know if you know anything about refineries, but you extract, I mean, jet fuel, which is the champagne of the oil barrel, and then all other products, including vanilla.
15:05:830Anna Stoppato: Because, I mean, the vanilla of the ice creams are coming from the, from the oil barrel, and other synthetic, etc. At the end, when you have something that you… I mean, what remains was becoming heavy fuel oil that was used in maritime
15:22:220Anna Stoppato: in maritime transportation. A lot has been done in the last decades in order to reduce the environmental footprint. So.
15:31:460Anna Stoppato: everything went in the direction to electrify a bit, desulphurize, reduce the sulfur content on the fuel, and etc. Now, we are, but I mean, it was, I would call them, incremental innovation.
15:46:630Anna Stoppato: Now, it's going to be the time to have disruptive innovation. What changes? Because you cannot replace heavy fuel oil or whatever other MGO or other fuel, and put just LNG, for example, or…
16:02:270Anna Stoppato: or hydrogen as well. You need different containment systems, you need different distribution system, everything is completely different. And please remember.
16:12:220Anna Stoppato: We are not on ground. I mean, we are in a place, the ship, in which weight and volumes are a scarce resource, and they have to be carefully, carefully, managed.
16:27:80Anna Stoppato: Because, after all, the ship is expected to respect one load, which is Archimedes' load.
16:33:550Anna Stoppato: So, it has to float, and so we cannot move, I mean, something which is a certain weight from one point of the ship to another one, because then we are changing the stability of the ship, the performance of the ship, the capability to survive at sea of the ship, and etc. So, everything is super complex. You change something.
16:51:680Anna Stoppato: More probably, you have to start from… it's like, you know, the dice games, with the board games, in which at a certain point, you get, okay, start from the beginning.
17:03:950Anna Stoppato: and you want to introduce some new technology, sometimes there is, oh, start from the beginning, and you start, I mean, designing the ship again from the game. So, 2026 is the big year for us, for the first hydrogen ship.
17:18:470Anna Stoppato: But we are working also on methanol, methanol-ready ships, ammonia as well, we are looking at that, electrification, state-of-the-art, whenever it is possible. SOFC fuel bioenergy.
17:32:610Anna Stoppato: But, also on the long, long term, on nuclear, nuclear power. Everything is related on the capability to supply and secure energy to ensure, maritime transportation.
17:45:690Anna Stoppato: So… We have a pro… Houston, we have a problem. So… We have to change.
17:52:960Anna Stoppato: Let's see how this means. First of all, why we have to change. Let's start from the fact. Worldwide, maritime transport accounts for 3% of global CO2 emissions. I would say even more.
18:09:340Anna Stoppato: Because there is only one source that is giving this data, which is the IMOT, International Maritime Organization.
18:16:660Anna Stoppato: with a report that is going to be updated every 7 years, more or less. This is quite old, because 2018 plus 7 is this year, so they are already working to update it. I expect that 3% is going to
18:30:900Anna Stoppato: To increase, with more or less 1 billion ton CO2 emissions. But also in Europe, the situation is not so, so good. We have, maritime accounts for 3.3, 3.2, 3.3 CO2 emissions, and so both
18:45:200Anna Stoppato: at IMO level, and at the European Commission level, they agree on something.
18:52:110Anna Stoppato: Houston, we have a problem. We have, we must do something. Then we can see if Trump's administration will allow
19:01:270Anna Stoppato: IMO to proceed forward. But, I mean, it's not… IMO is a, is an international committee with a lot of, stakeholders there, so decisions are taken by the majority. But the path, the direction, is, already set.
19:18:870Anna Stoppato: By 2050, we have to reduce by 100% all the emissions in maritime, with, I mean, progression scores. And this is completely in line with the European Commission say. By 2050, you have to reduce by 90%. So.
19:38:800Anna Stoppato: they are not just writing on the clouds this kind of information. They are started… they started, I mean, to set new rules. So, the IME in 2023 adopted a revised AIM on GOG strategy.
19:53:950Anna Stoppato: Which usually say that we have to start with what is much more feasible, so to refit existing ships and take those action on the existing ships that reduce emissions.
20:07:80Anna Stoppato: And then, they are working at the moment on Net Zero Emission Framework that was a mandatory framework for all international maritime shipping.
20:17:910Anna Stoppato: So, valid worldwide, in order to reduce emissions and to reach the zero emission in 20, in 2050. Last time they, they, they, they met, there was a step back from the United States representatives, and, but the rest, I mean, in any case, so this has slowed a bit, this, this implementation.
20:41:480Anna Stoppato: But, I mean, the direction is still, set.
20:45:140Anna Stoppato: On the other side, if you want to have fun in Europe, the main… Europe is… I work in European advocacy. I mean, I make advocacy at the European level in Brussels.
21:01:280Anna Stoppato: for R&D technologies for maritime. And, the way that,
21:05:400Anna Stoppato: the European Commission is using to invite stakeholders, industrial stakeholders, to do something and to decarbonize, usually is the very, raffinata, a very peculiar, very subtle, subtle…
21:23:740Anna Stoppato: technique, which is called the carrot and the stick. The carrot is, I'm giving you funds to innovate. The stick is, you're going to pay a lot more than you're paying today.
21:35:260Anna Stoppato: But there is a rationale between these. EUTS, ETS, you know ETS, yes, come on. You know ETS, okay. So, ETS is from the commuter space principle.
21:46:220Anna Stoppato: So, we were welcomed with cheers and applauses one or two years ago, because maritime was excluded by ETS system. Now we are fully in, and we have a decreasing threshold to meet.
22:00:850Anna Stoppato: And this is one. Another one is to…
22:04:250Anna Stoppato: a comprehensive set of rules that is fit for 55, which includes fuel humanitime, which roughly says, I don't care what you are using, but progressively, you have to use
22:17:510Anna Stoppato: Less, fuels that are… that have a less impact in terms of G2G, consider well-to-wake. So…
22:27:70Anna Stoppato: please work also in partnership with the fuel producers, so it's not only your problem, but you have to develop that, also the value chain of fuels. And another one, which is AFIR, Alternative Fuel Infrastructure Regulation, because I can also have a… might have a rule that says you have to bunker fuel in your ships, so produce ships with hydrogen and
22:51:370Anna Stoppato: you have to bank hydrogen in your ships, but produce hydrogen, manufacture hydrogen ships, and use them in Europe. But at a certain point, when a ship is calling a port, that port must be hydrogen, or whatever other fuel that is used to decomonize monetize, otherwise it's completely useless. So, there is a…
23:10:740Anna Stoppato: a portfolio of legislative… the legislative actions that is going… that has been set up by the European Commission to activate not only one single sector, like Maritime, but the entire value chain.
23:25:20Anna Stoppato: I mean, what we are facing today in maritime is that we have a wicked problem. So, a problem that nobody can solve.
23:31:960Anna Stoppato: Hello.
23:33:320Anna Stoppato: If we want to decarbonize maritime, we have to work together and to develop at the same pace together those producing fuels, those distributing fuels, so the pipelines and etc.
23:45:290Anna Stoppato: those… the ports having fuel availability at ports, the ship owners with the new ships, and so on and so forth. So, if… I mean, if we want really to change, then we have to complete this transformation in all these segments.
24:03:590Anna Stoppato: This was underlined again in something which is brand new, the EU Industrial Maritime strategy, which is the sister of the EU Ports Strategy, which is setting the scene in saying maritime is important for European economy.
24:21:230Anna Stoppato: Look around, 90% of what you see in this room came with a container from outside Europe, because all the goods in Europe, 90% are coming from outside through maritime shipping. So that's just a…
24:36:810Anna Stoppato: little idea or little message to say how maritime is important, so we cannot rely on external industrial capabilities in order to sustain maritime sector. So, I'm not going to bother you with this,
24:54:670Anna Stoppato: this, this charter. This is the official charter of the International Maritime Organization, stating what they have done since 2011 in order to introduce slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, all the regulations that say.
25:09:820Anna Stoppato: Logan should be decreasing your emission at ship and operating the ships.
25:15:910Anna Stoppato: a lot of regulation that requires a lot of consensus. It takes time, so if we want to start to be virtual, and so to get the target of 2060, they started, we started in 2011,
25:31:400Anna Stoppato: That's the only message.
25:32:990Anna Stoppato: That's… I mean…
25:36:660Anna Stoppato: If we are emitting… if maritime is emitting GAG or CO2, which is the most relevant… most relevant pollutant, where is this CO2 coming from? From?
25:54:280Anna Stoppato: Even more general.
25:56:840Anna Stoppato: From the viewer.
25:58:590Anna Stoppato: So, if we want to solve the problem there.
26:02:490Anna Stoppato: We have to address the fuel.
26:05:370Anna Stoppato: So, everything in this moment is…
26:08:920Anna Stoppato: what is the fuel that should be… should maritime be using in the next… in the next future? And of course, not fossil fuel, because otherwise, we get back to the same problem. So…
26:21:770Anna Stoppato: There are some, candidates, I want to be known for. Hydrogen, because this course is on hydrogen, but I want to also to add other competitors, like methanol and ammonia. So, which one will win?
26:35:220Anna Stoppato: Nobody knows.
26:36:480Anna Stoppato: And I say there is no silver bullet.
26:39:30Anna Stoppato: there will be certain applications, certain fuels that are more fit for purpose to certain applications, rather than the others, but let's see the difference. We want… I mean, we all love hydrogen, wonderful, okay, but what are the competitors? When hydrogen is prevailing on other fuels, and when hydrogen is failing compared to other fuels? Let's have a look. But first, a question.
27:02:780Anna Stoppato: May I take off my jacket? Before I turn. Yeah, this is not working.
27:08:890Anna Stoppato: I don't know the policy etiquette.
27:14:430Anna Stoppato: Yeah, thank you very much.
27:16:980Anna Stoppato: So…
27:18:580Anna Stoppato: Regarding carbon GHG, a point, a point of use. So, really at the… at the… at the funnel, we would say.
27:27:80Anna Stoppato: Hi there, Jane. It's beating everybody. It's no C, no CO2.
27:31:750Anna Stoppato: So, it's super, it's super, it's super candidate for this. Methanol, well, methanol, it has a C, so it will release CO2, so we want to be natural, so it must be synthetic methanol produced with carbon capture from the air, and etc. Ammonia, well, H3.
27:53:940Anna Stoppato: No, there is no C. Wonderful. So, lovely. We could use ammonia instead of hydrogen, apart from a little detail that is written on the bottom. I mean, it's highly toxic. So, it's true that it has no C, but at the same time, it's really, really toxic.
28:11:550Anna Stoppato: Regarding physical state and storage.
28:14:550Anna Stoppato: Well, hydrogen here…
28:16:580Anna Stoppato: provide some problems, because you can use… you can have it compressed, you can have it liquid, but of course, as I've told you before.
28:26:400Anna Stoppato: I mean, volume is a scarce resource on board ship. It must be as contact as possible, so we go for liquid. But liquid? Okay. Do we have very good engineers in the room that may liquefy and keep liquefied hydrogen at minus 253, not on land, on a ship that is sailing on a regular cruise.
28:47:900Anna Stoppato: Because death is a challenge.
28:50:190Anna Stoppato: Methanol is by far easier in this, to this respect. Ammonia, yes, you have to refrigerate it, but it's minus 34. It's not 20 minus 20, 253. Then, volumetric energy density. When they say… I mean, I know that somebody, anybody, somebody else in this course came to you and said, hydrogen has a fantastic energy density.
29:14:840Anna Stoppato: Which is true and wrong. It is true if you consider mass energy density. But then, if you want to put it on board a ship, and we consider also volumetric energy density, it is the worst that you can have ever. Why it is important, volumetric energy density? Because fuel gives you
29:34:440Anna Stoppato: What gives you fuel?
29:37:560Anna Stoppato: Yeah, but in terms of performances of a ship, fuels means… What?
29:44:350Anna Stoppato: Trust, okay, but think, think, beyond this. When you are refueling your car… I mean, just trivial question,
29:54:800Anna Stoppato: I mean, what is limiting the fuel you put in your hand?
29:58:770Anna Stoppato: Not the time, not the time, the space, so the autonomy.
30:03:540Anna Stoppato: So fuel means energy, but means autonomy in terms of performance of the ship. If you want to have the same autonomy, you have to have… and you want to use hydrogen, you have to use bigger tanks.
30:19:30Anna Stoppato: That's not so easy. Sometimes that is not possible. Sometimes, I mean, the ship, you can see the ship in two ways.
30:28:640Anna Stoppato: Cut in a half. You have the platform, everything that needs to run the ship, and you have the payload. Everything for the ship owner to make money out of it.
30:39:540Anna Stoppato: If you go to the ship owner and say, I can…
30:42:810Anna Stoppato: I have a new technologies, but I'm eating up 20% or 30% of your… of your payload, and she probably will not be happy.
30:52:530Anna Stoppato: I mean, if I tell you I can sell you a wonderful car, but it will have only one seat, because the rest is required to have the same autonomy of the car, because we are using hydrogen and other fuel and etc. You will say, I have a girlfriend I want to bring in the countryside, that one seat is not enough for me, no?
31:12:820Anna Stoppato: So, the idea is that in developing new technology and putting on board new technology, you cannot compromise the payload for the ship owner.
31:21:330Anna Stoppato: It is valid for the narrative, but it's valid also for everything else.
31:26:900Anna Stoppato: So… Volumetical indigenity methanol is by far much, much better. Dominant hazard, we have…
31:35:280Anna Stoppato: Ammonia. Ammonia is terrible, ammonia is terrible, because even other gases that you can use as a fuel, I mean, are toxic. LNG is toxic. The problem is that… the good thing about LNG is that if you open the window.
31:50:110Anna Stoppato: or whatever, and you have ventilation, this is going to be dispersed in the air. Ammonia is quite heavy as a molecular. If you open the window, the ammonia will stay on the surface of the sea. If you are in a harbor, in a port, will go and kill the entire city, which is nearby. So, that's the reason why
32:10:40Anna Stoppato: I mean, he…
32:11:280Anna Stoppato: we have the technology to manage… I mean, we have a… it's since decades that we are shipping ammonia for fertilizing and for other applications, so it's something that we have… we know how to manage.
32:26:840Anna Stoppato: But to put it in other context, which is not transporting ammonia, but using ammonia for passenger ship transport, it's a different story, and needs to be addressed.
32:36:590Anna Stoppato: I'm an engineer, I think that every challenge can be solved, technically speaking. So, that needs to be addressed first.
32:46:350Anna Stoppato: Then, let's go, let's go on.
32:49:560Anna Stoppato: Onboard, system complexity, if you need to… if you have to keep, hydrogen at minus 20… 253, well, it's going to be quite a huge, huge hassle in terms of system around the system.
33:07:660Anna Stoppato: Also for metal and ammonia compared to standard system, it's quite difficult. Then, regulatory maturity. Methanol is very close to be fully regulated. Hydrogen ammonia, I mean, we have to go with something that we will see later on. Role in the carbonization of hydrogen is winning. I mean, no, no discussion. It's the better, best you can have.
33:30:850Anna Stoppato: But at a certain point, you have to compromise what can be done and what cannot, and what are the best solutions.
33:37:930Anna Stoppato: Any questions so far?
33:40:830Anna Stoppato: Okay.
33:42:120Anna Stoppato: So…
33:43:390Anna Stoppato: What is the status today of alternative ship… alternative fuels? Ships with alternative fuels? You can see that it's really negligible compared to the ships that are sailing at the moment. Those… and we are considering ships with LNG on board as alternative
34:03:250Anna Stoppato: shapes and…
34:04:200Anna Stoppato: On, as you can see. You can see on your left, the number of ships, and on your right, the gross tone. So, not comparing a small ship with a big ship, but how the weights. But we have a very, very promising,
34:21:409Anna Stoppato: signaled. So, if you look at the orders, we can see that the sector is moving to alternative… towards alternatives. Hydrogen is on the bottom of the table, I know, but it depends on the applications.
34:34:810Anna Stoppato: So, very confident in this.
34:37:480Anna Stoppato: The sector is moving. What are the projections?
34:41:620Anna Stoppato: you go and look for whatever credible institution, you will receive different, different ones. But as you can say, and this is a Net Zero Roadmap.
34:54:679Anna Stoppato: source. Hydrogen on the long term, it has a future on maritime shipping. So, you don't… you don't have just cruises, you have also, I mean, international shipping. And ammonia is beating hydrogen regarding autonomy, energy density, autonomy, and other, and other factors. But, I mean, 20% for projected, and 2050 for hydrogen.
35:18:790Anna Stoppato: That's a good shot, huh? Fair shot.
35:22:460Anna Stoppato: So…
35:24:620Anna Stoppato: You want to… you have a ship. You want to replace the ship with a new technology with hydrogen, and it's going with
35:32:260Anna Stoppato: I mean, LNG… LNG is already quite clean energy, we consider quite clean energy compared to, low sulfur fuel, a heavy fuel oil, or low sulfur fuel oil, or MGO, and etc.
35:45:540Anna Stoppato: But you see that if you have a ship with LNG and you replace it with hydrogen, it's 2.5 times bigger.
35:53:850Anna Stoppato: You remember the example of the car, the seats, the fact that you are willing to bring your girlfriend around the countryside on the weekend, and etc. That is the problem of hydrogen.
36:09:870Anna Stoppato: Again, it is the same. Okay, sorry. That was,
36:14:680Anna Stoppato: that was exactly, exactly the same as before, because I wanted to put it here.
36:23:440Anna Stoppato: But I left an old copy there. So…
36:27:100Anna Stoppato: We are in the middle of our presentation. Any questions regarding this? Anything coming into your mind that you want to, to challenge me, or to have an explanation, or to something?
36:40:910Anna Stoppato: and violated.
36:53:830Anna Stoppato: It's, it's part… it's part of the… the transition.
37:02:630Anna Stoppato: That, I mean, the transition is not black or white. It's not from 1st of January, we switch from one technology to another one. And it's linked to a lot of other variables, really. Really a lot of other variables. First of all, the availability of fuel.
37:20:260Anna Stoppato: No ship owner, whatever is the ship, wants to be locked on a single technology, on a single fuel, in which there is unpredictability regarding the long-term availability of a single fuel.
37:31:750Anna Stoppato: So, one of the strategies that we are going to… that the sector is going to use is to have dual fuels between conventional fuel, most cases LNG,
37:43:130Anna Stoppato: And…
37:44:220Anna Stoppato: innovative, cleaner fuels, like, for example, hydrogen. In the ships we are building, ammonia is still in the wish list.
37:52:400Anna Stoppato: So, because it has, on passenger ships, it has some problems regarding toxicity, as I said, so it's not already in the catalog. We have some small ships for offshore that are ammonia-ready, so ready to bring on board ammonia, but they are also autonomous ships, so with no crew on board.
38:11:710Anna Stoppato: And, we are working on LNG, methanol, hydrogen, and on the long term, we're looking at ammonia as well, and we are looking also at nuclear power. But.
38:26:230Anna Stoppato: We are selling the ship. We are not operating the ship. So, if you are the one operating with the ship, your name is a ship owner.
38:35:240Anna Stoppato: one thing you need is the ship, the other is a long-term supply of fuel. So, it is the ship owner also to look at this problem, to try to find a solution, and to start to secure this long-term availability of the new alternative fuels. That's the reason why
38:54:820Anna Stoppato: all the… I mean, it is all the value chain that needs to progress towards a certain direction, or towards multiple direction.
39:02:940Anna Stoppato: We will not, I don't recall any case in which, I mean, we have two different fuels and we combine them together.
39:11:590Anna Stoppato: That is not usually best practice. Either you go on one fuel, or you go on the other fuel. Something that can also be used, since, I mean.
39:21:170Anna Stoppato: Let's simplify to the maximum of shipped payload, and platform.
39:25:880Anna Stoppato: platform is composed by two systems, a fuel energy, and a converter of this energy, which is the power generation system. We don't know what is this, but, I mean, we have chemical energy as a hydrogen, but we don't want chemical energy. We want, I mean, electricity. So we need something to convert this energy.
39:46:310Anna Stoppato: And so this means that, since it is, you can change also the power convection, the power generation system.
39:55:200Anna Stoppato: But if you have a ship and you want to keep that one, it would be nice to have cleaner fuels, different fuels, that goes in the same device that you have to convert in energy. And this is the philosophy behind finding drop-in fuels.
40:09:510Anna Stoppato: what European Commission says. So, developing synthetic fuels that have the same properties of traditional fuels, so that you can take and put it in the
40:20:490Anna Stoppato: well-known old internal combustion engines without disrupting everything, without making any change. So you have only to work on storage system. That is a kind of simplification. It can work on the transitional phase. At a certain point, you have to go somewhere.
40:39:520Anna Stoppato: Any other questions?
40:43:80Anna Stoppato: No further questions. So, I see that you are anxious to know what's
40:48:70Anna Stoppato: what is beyond the fuel, and you have the… I mean, we don't… on board, we don't need hydrogen. Absolutely, we don't need that. We don't drink hydrogen, we don't, share hydrogen with passengers and etc, but we need electricity, so this hydrogen must be…
41:06:240Anna Stoppato: Must become, at a certain point, power, another form of power.
41:12:440Anna Stoppato: Why I say electricity? I'm an electrical engineer, so I'm very fond of this, because then electricity, it's true that it's difficult to store them, and batteries can do it, but they're not very effective on that. I'm honest. I like electrical engineers, but I'm honest on the fact that electricity is not the best in class.
41:33:370Anna Stoppato: But it's best in class, because you can do whatever you want them. Once you have electricity, then you can have a motor, electric motor, and then you can have whatever. That's the basis, also, of what's happening on board. We don't have, I mean,
41:48:200Anna Stoppato: an engine for internal combustion engines moving the propeller. We have the disconnection. We have a power generation system on board large ships that are producing electricity, and somewhere else, there are
42:00:930Anna Stoppato: electric motors that are creating trust from the same electricity that if you are in a cabin, you are using to switch off your lights and illuminate your cabin. So, fuel cells. I have some slides, but, I'm quite, I mean.
42:18:480Anna Stoppato: I'm not going to spend a lot of time, because you are studying it since the beginning of your first day here, so…
42:26:990Anna Stoppato: Something you can use in hydrogen in order to convert in electricity are fuel cells. I don't have to explain you what is a fuel cell. Fuel cells compete with batteries.
42:39:880Anna Stoppato: why batteries are better and why fuel cells are better, because batteries are better because they're simpler, I would say.
42:49:760Anna Stoppato: But they need a lot of time to be recharged. So, another aspect of boosting and having energy on board is energy density, but also recharging time.
43:01:730Anna Stoppato: If you have an electric system with batteries, it is a hell of a problem in recharging, so that when we produced some ferries in Norway.
43:14:880Anna Stoppato: We had a very innovative device to recharge in just 30 minutes all the batteries.
43:22:850Anna Stoppato: you open, you open an opening on the wall of the… on the hull of the ship, you take out the battery, you take another one spare, you put it inside, and then you are ready to go. And then the other one is going to be recharged until, I mean, the ship is coming back.
43:40:80Anna Stoppato: Hydrogen is much faster to refuel, definitely.
43:44:240Anna Stoppato: But at the same time, batteries are better because they're simpler, but they don't store a lot of energy. If you have a few cells with hydrogen.
43:53:380Anna Stoppato: I said that hydrogen is terrible in energy… volumetric energy density, but in any case, it's better sometimes than electricity. And, so, it's, but another problem of battery is that the weight is very much. I mean, so they have a lot of weight, and this is also creating some
44:14:420Anna Stoppato: problems as well. In the past, I think 2015, more or less.
44:20:110Anna Stoppato: We received an order, and we put the largest battery installation on both ships. There were some Rinaldi ferries, Cruise Roma, Cruise Barcelona, I think. We replaced one engine with the batteries, and this pack of batteries were just needed
44:37:760Anna Stoppato: to have operation maneuvering upwards. So, polluting with the traditional fuels until the port, then zero emission upwards.
44:48:910Anna Stoppato: But, as you can see, that battery pack was not sufficient to ensure the full… the full, the full trip that was from Sicily, I don't know, Civita Becca, to Barcelona, example. So, we're not talking about international shipping, we are talking about Mediterranean shipping.
45:08:680Anna Stoppato: that battery are not capable to provide the energy I need for long routes. For short ferries, okay. In some other applications, okay.
45:17:800Anna Stoppato: But, they have limitations. And so, fewer cells are better. Sometimes. Better. Depends from the application you are looking for.
45:27:760Anna Stoppato: Fuel cells, we have different, kind of, and in maritime, I know that we know that there are so many, blah blah blah, and etc, but after a lot of, studies we made, we are focusing now in maritime and infinity in two kinds, temp and softco.
45:44:100Anna Stoppato: them with hydrogen, soft with hydrogen, but we like it also because they can also run with LNG, with proper preparation of LNG and so on and so forth. So this is solving another problem.
45:54:960Anna Stoppato: That, it's simpler for me.
45:57:540Anna Stoppato: to replace, or to have… to manage LNG, which is something that I can… I know how I can manage in terms of international regulation on both ships, rather than resolving much more complex problems regarding storing and managing hydrogen on board.
46:18:30Anna Stoppato: We will see later on.
46:19:550Anna Stoppato: There are many other. In the past, we also worked on the multi-carbonate, fuel cells when I joined Fincantieri, I think it was in 2005.
46:33:200Anna Stoppato: We had a research project. The project was a success and a failure. Success basically because we concluded, yes, it might be possible, a failure because the dimensions and weight were too big at the time in order to put on board data technologies.
46:48:320Anna Stoppato: And, I forgot to put here, to add here a couple of slides regarding how we started to work on, on, on hydrogen on board, infinity, but we started from submarines.
47:02:640Anna Stoppato: And so, small fuel cells of, 100 kilowatts… 120 kilowatts to put on board submarines, because,
47:13:650Anna Stoppato: In that case, when you don't have a reciprocal internal combustion engines, that, in the water makes a boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and can be easily detected.
47:26:720Anna Stoppato: by, by other… by sonars and etc, and you are running with fuel cell, that is far better if you are in a submarine. Then you still have to work on the propeller, because also the propeller is making some noise, but at least you have solved part of the…
47:44:840Anna Stoppato: Underwater noise propagation from the… from the submarine.
47:49:10Anna Stoppato: Then… From that, and it was 2000. From that moment on, we kept working on,
47:56:100Anna Stoppato: applying fuel cell technology and hydrogen technology ship. We developed a lab in Genoa, in Savona, with the University of, Genoa. We developed another lab in Trieste.
48:11:260Anna Stoppato: with 140 kilowatt of 10 fuel cells, and that one went on board the first ship, the King, but it was kind of demonstration because one was 140 kilowatt in total. I mean, in a cruise ship, we are talking about a power need of about 40, 50, 60 megawatt megawatts.
48:35:290Anna Stoppato: So, 140 just, for this room, more or less.
48:40:390Anna Stoppato: But we had to start from something, and so we started at small scale in that, in that declining condition. So, what are the difference between the two? I mean, this, you could take the floor and explain to me, but,
48:54:110Anna Stoppato: I mean, it's, soft, are also, I mean, are more flexible. I'm not telling you something theoretical that you probably know already. I'm telling, I'm telling you something practical that is relevant to the application on Marivine. Softka, as I told you, are easier to manage because you can use also LNG. At the same time, inside the ship.
49:18:120Anna Stoppato: you don't need only… you need different energies, and also, thermal energy you need, and soft, high temperature soft are also delivering this thermal energy to a certain extent. So…
49:33:270Anna Stoppato: If you don't have… I mean, we need to have boilers. I mean, it can be with, with fuels or electric polishers, but we need also… I mean, when you are on a cruise ship, you need also hot water and so on and so forth, so that's… that's the point.
49:48:780Anna Stoppato: There are… but fuel cells are not the only one.
49:55:70Anna Stoppato: Systems that you can use for
49:58:530Anna Stoppato: I mean, implicitly, I've already made a selection. We are not talking anymore about ammonium methanol, but we are talking about hydrogen. If we start putting on board a ship hydrogen, then hydrogen you can start using with PEMCA, with SOFCA, but also with internal combustion engines.
50:17:510Anna Stoppato: Or, we are very good in thinking, we are building a sub-in combined cycle concept. So, using a hydrogen turbine, and in a combined cycle, and to use this power generation system in order to power the ship.
50:33:700Anna Stoppato: Turbines are usually much more familiar for novel application, but in the past, there were also ships, fuel not been… in which the power generation system was not insured by internal combustion engines, but also by turbines. And there is a kind of,
50:49:490Anna Stoppato: interest, renewed interest from ship owners to bring back turbines on board large, large ships.
50:59:760Anna Stoppato: They are good for high power… because they have high power density and efficiency recovery. Internal combustion engine is the most traditional technology we have nowadays in order to, to convert chemical energy of a fuel into electric energy that can be used, whatever.
51:17:420Anna Stoppato: In this case, on board, on board a ship.
51:21:890Anna Stoppato: Then… When you brought on board ships, hydrogen, and you started to, have a new
51:29:670Anna Stoppato: new, new fuels, new technology, etc. Why it is so difficult? Well, first of all, because you have a new technology, and the new technology… I mean, when I started to work in the hydrogen sector, there was people from automotive say, oh, we do have heavy-duty applications, yeah, we can reach also 250 kilowatts.
51:52:330Anna Stoppato: Okay, and then, because we need them the order of tens of megawatts, not 250 kilos. So, in the automotive, 250 is considered heavy duty.
52:05:800Anna Stoppato: In maritime, this is not… I mean, we are not starting neither the championship with this system. This means that you cannot have, in terms of fuel cell, incremental innovation. I'm doing it a little bit bigger, and it will work. No, you have to rethink
52:23:830Anna Stoppato: itself for maritime application. And then you have to put it on board.
52:28:740Anna Stoppato: And it's not easy, because then you have to combine different styles and etc. And then, as an electrical engineer, I mean, we still have problems as an engineering student to coordinate
52:41:970Anna Stoppato: the parallel working of different internal combustion genes, that, without, I mean, to make them evenly work, for example, at 80%,
52:52:330Anna Stoppato: And of course, if you have a multiple system, you'll need to have a lot of coordination systems in order to make them work evenly at the same level.
53:02:480Anna Stoppato: Safety, you have new…
53:04:430Anna Stoppato: new systems on board, you have new fuels on board, you have to take care about safety. Infrastructure, it is that problem that I was referring before regarding having fuels and fuel infrastructure at ports. And of course, rules and regulations, because maritime is a very prescriptive
53:24:940Anna Stoppato: prescriptive, sector. You, IMO is, producing books in which they are stating
53:34:320Anna Stoppato: How? You have to do it in order to be 100% safe. This is, of course, nothing but new. The fact is that when you are introducing a new technology like hydrogen, you don't have that book.
53:47:790Anna Stoppato: And that book is going to be produced and prepared according to the experiences that the first pioneers in introducing these technologies are doing on first prototypes. How? With a system which is alternative design that we will see later on. Alternative design means that
54:07:780Anna Stoppato: I must say, you must be compliant with my rules. No exception.
54:14:610Anna Stoppato: Apart one exception.
54:16:480Anna Stoppato: If you prove, in terms of risk assessment, that your solution is as safe as the prescriptive rule.
54:24:90Anna Stoppato: then I allow you to do something different. But alternative design is very, very time-consuming. It requires a lot of, work in terms of engineering time, so that is good for you, that you are graduating engineering, so…
54:38:530Anna Stoppato: there will be the need. I mean, Copilot and Cloud will not replace engineers, at least not in the short term. But, of course, this means that there is a lot of work to be done.
54:50:650Anna Stoppato: So, the questions in this case are.
54:54:980Anna Stoppato: what can go wrong when we put hydrogen on board? Well, I love hydrogen, but I mean, if we compare to other fuels that we have, that we bring on board, we have,
55:09:600Anna Stoppato: Flammability as an issue, and also ignition sensitivity.
55:14:760Anna Stoppato: So, it takes nothing and far less than LNG to have… to ignite a little spill of hydrogen, something that you, of course, would not like to happen. But this means that if you take
55:30:960Anna Stoppato: With a magic wand and replace LNG with LNG with hydrogen, the risk, because of this property of hydrogen, is much higher.
55:42:750Anna Stoppato: And you have to take some actions in order to reduce it as it was before.
55:47:50Anna Stoppato: The second one is the lovely cryogenic effect of liquid hydrogen.
55:52:360Anna Stoppato: This means that when you have something at minus 253, it's super, super cold, even if you insulate and etc, it will be cold in a certain way. And when you have something cold, humidity in the air likes it and creates water condensation.
56:09:680Anna Stoppato: Water concentration has another property, which is something rich of oxygen.
56:15:820Anna Stoppato: So, oxygen and something flammable is creating a combination which we don't like. It is, again, increasing the risks.
56:26:490Anna Stoppato: So, also, something very peculiar of hydrogen… I love hydrogen, but I have to present all the technical challenges that we do have, is that when you are at minus 253, and you are bringing hydrogen here and there, and etc.
56:44:910Anna Stoppato: You are doing it with metabolic, I mean, systems.
56:50:410Anna Stoppato: And, there is a problem for venbridamide.
56:53:480Anna Stoppato: So, even in that case, I mean, this is increasing the risk, and I'm coming with some other, other, other, other… other aspects of hydrogen, which is leak propensity. Let's talk about leak propensity. Hydrogen is very, very little molecular.
57:12:550Anna Stoppato: Okay, so whenever you have an embrittlement with a little crack or an etc, how do you say, hey, let's go and see what's outside here. So, there is the…
57:25:660Anna Stoppato: propensity to have, hydrogen leaks much more than we have on LNG.
57:34:460Anna Stoppato: Now, reformulated all what I'm saying to you.
57:38:360Anna Stoppato: all existing regulations are done taking LNG as a reference, and limiting all the risks that also LNG has, because also LNG has to be kept at, not at minus 253, but at low temperature. But
57:55:370Anna Stoppato: all the rules at Aymo.
57:58:640Anna Stoppato: are defined in order to cope that level of risk with a molecular which is bigger, which is warmer, even at minus, and so on and so forth, and hydrogen is pushing even more
58:13:510Anna Stoppato: So, we can go by analogy, but we have to look also for something new when we have a hydrogen on both. And the fourth…
58:23:100Anna Stoppato: The forta,
58:26:690Anna Stoppato: The fourth thing we need to take care is that if we have it… okay, rarely we will have it compressed.
58:37:570Anna Stoppato: Sometimes we have it liquid. Sometimes we cannot manage to keep it minus 20, 253 all the time, so there will be a part which is vaporizing. And vaporizing in a tank means that it is increasing pressure, which is a mechanical energy.
58:57:450Anna Stoppato: ready to be liberated. I mean, it needed to create problems. So, even systems to…
59:05:180Anna Stoppato: For the boil-off, to use what is created on the top of the tank regarding, on this, of this liquid hydrogen, needs to be specifically designed in order to reduce, at minimum, or at least at a very, acceptable level.
59:24:140Anna Stoppato: The managing… the risk related to the use of hydrogen.
59:31:970Anna Stoppato: Does it sound familiar with you? I mean, am I convincing you?
59:36:500Anna Stoppato: So, these are all, all problems that we are solving, but the good news for you is that we need engineering, engineers in order to solve these problems.
59:47:460Anna Stoppato: Then, what can we do?
59:50:140Anna Stoppato: I will say something very, very similar. It's not on the slides, but it's very technical. If we have a risk, I tell you what is the algorithm.
59:58:610Anna Stoppato: A very complicated one.
00:00:770Anna Stoppato: to address this risk in theoretical terms. If you have a risk, please eliminate the risk.
00:09:290Anna Stoppato: Okay. So, when you are making the analysis, in order to assess the risk, you come to a point that is, I can have this, a leakage here in the junction.
00:19:710Anna Stoppato: Eliminate. How can I work in engineering terms in order to eliminate the risk that in this junction is… that there is a leak? And so you start working on that specific problem. The second, if you can't, the second is to substitute.
00:37:580Anna Stoppato: the risk, or device, and etc. So, can I have the, I mean, the pipe without the junction? I mean, if it's possible, then you replace with something different. Or…
00:51:130Anna Stoppato: So, replace the hazard with a safer alternative, or…
00:55:60Anna Stoppato: Implement technical safety… engineering controls, implement technical safety barriers. If anything happens, I have a containment system, okay?
01:05:300Anna Stoppato: that…
01:06:570Anna Stoppato: times, the double how times works in this, in this, to this, to this respect. That's another safety issue that you put in place in order to reduce the risk.
01:18:830Anna Stoppato: Then… I mean, we are going to…
01:22:630Anna Stoppato: towards less effective, measures, but then you can, that you can implement. The second last is make administrative controls. Go there every two hours with a leakage detector and check if anything is happening.
01:38:580Anna Stoppato: If you cannot do whatever else in the procedure, then you have to implement that. The last one is…
01:45:940Anna Stoppato: And protect yourself.
01:48:00Anna Stoppato: put an helmet, and etc. But of course.
01:51:290Anna Stoppato: I mean, this is the very last one methodology you can have in order to reduce the risk.
02:01:150Anna Stoppato: So, everything, everything in designing a ship with new technologies, with hydrogen technologies on board, is considering the four risks I said before, and in which part I identify, I could have a problem to find, like, an algorithm.
02:21:80Anna Stoppato: a new solution in which I say, can I eliminate? Can I substitute? Can I control? Can I implement operative solutions in order to minimize the risk? Why? Because I have to take in consideration the entire system of the ship.
02:39:280Anna Stoppato: And to look on all the…
02:42:120Anna Stoppato: various parts of this system, and the bunkering, and the distribution, and the tank, and the transmission system to the power generation, and the power generation, etc. Break down all the systems, and start to say, okay, what is the problem that it is a leakage? What is the problem that it is an explosion? What is the probability, and etc, etc, etc, etc. And then, with this tree of probability, I can
03:06:240Anna Stoppato: with that.
03:07:200Anna Stoppato: overall probability of failure of this system. And this probability of failure must be lower
03:14:980Anna Stoppato: or better, I mean, equivalent or lower, to the prescriptive regulation.
03:21:200Anna Stoppato: And the frustrating revelation, I can assure you, is very, very, very low, because we all want to be safe. But!
03:28:980Anna Stoppato: I mean, we have technology problems that we have to solve. We have safety to address in different ways, because there are no rules and regulations, plus extra problem, we have… we must have an infrastructure.
03:42:710Anna Stoppato: We have an infrastructure to develop outports.
03:49:800Anna Stoppato: this one.
03:52:320Anna Stoppato: No, it was not this one.
03:54:510Anna Stoppato: Okay, you will find we are running out of time. So, this is the specification of, fuel cell shipping, implementation.
04:03:620Anna Stoppato: Yeah, it's, okay, I will go super fast in this. The problem of putting hydrogen and fuel cells on board is that, I mean, you are missing standards and regulations.
04:16:430Anna Stoppato: we still have the equipment at the equipment side. We are growing in terms of maturity of the technology, so fuel cells for maritime has not…
04:28:910Anna Stoppato: Are not state-of-the-art, at least in the level of power we need.
04:34:480Anna Stoppato: And then, of course, you…
04:40:180Anna Stoppato: You need a lot of system around the fuel cells in order to make them run.
04:45:540Anna Stoppato: Then we have specific, specific issues with Pam and Soft.
04:52:610Anna Stoppato: But coming back on the process on which we bring new technologies on board, what we can do is that
05:00:200Anna Stoppato: I mean, we have to go from prospect… as I was telling you, from prospective rules that are not existing to goal-based functional requirements. That means you need to have a goal, you need to deploy what are the functional requirements, and then
05:16:500Anna Stoppato: to break down all this, this, all the system in specific risk arguments. Make an analysis, calculate the specific risk associated to the system, and then calculate that, calculate the risk.
05:33:260Anna Stoppato: How are you doing this?
05:35:350Anna Stoppato: Once you have done the… Cope.
05:42:720Anna Stoppato: Once you have done the risk assessment.
05:46:580Anna Stoppato: Then, you have to stop at the ultimate design and ranching process. So, in,
05:54:510Anna Stoppato: there is a reference… there is a reference regulation that we are taking as a closest point on where we want to arrive, which is the IGF code.
06:06:660Anna Stoppato: Which is the… the IGA code is regulating all the,
06:15:410Anna Stoppato: gas fuels that we have, including LNG. So, we are going in a certain way to analogy… analogy in a time in order to regulate.
06:26:110Anna Stoppato: And in the process starts for identifying deviation between the solution you are going to implement compared to the IGF code, so to the existing regulation, the closest you have.
06:41:400Anna Stoppato: Then, 2, 3, 2…
06:43:420Anna Stoppato: analyze what are the holistic risks, all the various risks that the new solution is presenting compared to the prescribing and prospecting solution. Then you have to find, technically speaking, solutions that contain the risk below the level.
07:03:70Anna Stoppato: demonstrate equivalent, and then to submit the report and have iterative feedbacks with the administration. This is the way in which you
07:15:00Anna Stoppato: Come to the final design of a ship.
07:19:620Anna Stoppato: Which is going to be approved for construction.
07:23:320Anna Stoppato: A brief parenthesis, because it's something that I was taking for granted. What are the stakeholders in the maritime sector, involved in this? You have a ship owner.
07:35:270Anna Stoppato: That is back in the ship. You have a ship designer and shipbuilder. In case of Incairi, both coincides, so we are the same.
07:45:300Anna Stoppato: But then, at a certain point, you have flag administration. Every ship must be registered in the register of one single state. And in the single… in that state, there are officers that are
08:00:820Anna Stoppato: Verifying that the ship as built is compliant with international rules. And if this is going to happen, they are giving the flag.
08:11:880Anna Stoppato: to the, to the ship. You cannot have a ship for passengers for international shipping, which is not registered. Any ship must be registered in a state with a certain flag.
08:25:319Anna Stoppato: Are they super expert at everything? No, they are not. So there must be somebody in between, between the ship builder, which is us, the ship owner, and the flag administration.
08:37:300Anna Stoppato: which is giving the authorization to sell, that ensure… that provides a certificate
08:43:640Anna Stoppato: to… that works with the shipbuilder, is paid by the ship owner, and provides information to the flag administration that say, I have all the expertise to check that the builder has designed and built
08:59:29Anna Stoppato: the ship according to the standards, or according to the press release regulation, or according to the alternative design that has been approved, so on and so forth. And this additional stakeholder is called the Classification Society.
09:17:100Anna Stoppato: Classification societies, the most famous one, are Rina, Registrar Italiano Nazionale Navale.
09:25:390Anna Stoppato: I don't remember, pre-record it. Registro Italiano Navale, Rina. Registro Italiano Navale. Borroveritas, Lloyd Register.
09:36:649Anna Stoppato: DMV.
09:37:890Anna Stoppato: And a voltage… sorry.
09:40:930Anna Stoppato: In the past, there was also the Germanic Zerloyd, but DMV and Germanic Zerloid, they merged together, and now it's only DMV. There are many others, American Bureau of Shipping, RBS,
09:58:640Anna Stoppato: There are also the Korean Classification Society, the Japan Classification Society, and etc. But the one we are most familiar with for cruise ships are the first I mentioned. So.
10:11:800Anna Stoppato: These are a kind of supervisor on our shoulder that is checking whatever we are doing, and that is providing a certificate to the Flag Administration to say, look, there are no rules about hydrogen and oil ships. But I checked the alternative design that they provided ensured the same or lower risk level than the traditional, than technologies, and
10:36:630Anna Stoppato: script deregulation, and so I can
10:39:930Anna Stoppato: through, and we can confirm that the ship is good for sailing. And so, on the basis of this, the flag administration reads the document and says, okay, you convinced me, so I give the flag to the ship, and the ship may say.
10:55:250Anna Stoppato: In order to arrive to this, you have to work in alternative design, not alone at all.
11:01:990Anna Stoppato: But in developing solution and etc, in each and every solution that you are going to develop needs to be validated, because you have to convince the Classification Society that is following, I mean, that is monitoring the building of the ship. And declassification Society, as I told you before.
11:25:340Anna Stoppato: You are… we are not choosing it, but it's chosen by the ship owner.
11:30:830Anna Stoppato: Although, I mean, we know them very well, and in Trieste, where we have our design premise and etc, you have big offices of all the various, big classification societies, because one or the other on the third one, and etc, they are called to be the classification society for one of our ships.
11:53:500Anna Stoppato: The risk assessment that you are doing is something very, I mean, very serious. I mean, this is proving… this serves to prove that the risk level is lower, is the same or lower. So, everything needs to be perfectly assessed.
12:12:350Anna Stoppato: traced, you have to identify the risk, quantify the risk, identify the mitigating action you are taking, and remember the list of mitigating action that I told you.
12:26:210Anna Stoppato: And ensure, also, that these are all put into operation. I don't want to be trivial, but I want to create connection in something that maybe was… oh, yes, of course, that must be like this, and etc.
12:40:760Anna Stoppato: Let's consider like this, a situation like this. We have a storage of hydrogen somewhere, with a risk of little leak of hydrogen. And you know that, I mean, it's easy to ignite, requires just a hot surface and could ignite, you don't need a lot of concentration of hydrogen to create a dangerous situation, so on and so forth. And at the end of the story, part of the
13:04:960Anna Stoppato: Mitigating measures is ventilation.
13:09:20Anna Stoppato: let's put it in a trivial way. Opening the window, like in your, houses or your, in your room. At a certain point in the morning, in spring, you open the window because you want to oxygenate and etc.
13:23:850Anna Stoppato: If at a certain point, the locker doesn't work of the window, oh, come on.
13:29:320Anna Stoppato: What's the problem? It's just a window that doesn't work. If a ventilation pump is not working, it's not a ventilation pump, it's not working, it's a device specifically made there to reduce the risk that is not making his job.
13:44:570Anna Stoppato: So, in that moment, the ship is increasing the total risk. So, ensuring that the risk assessment is properly done, and all the implementation measures are taken into action is mandatory.
14:01:340Anna Stoppato: And there are frequent checks in order to verify that everything that we say that should be in place is in place. If you mitigate a risk with operational measures, once a day you have to go there and check if there is a leakage.
14:17:60Anna Stoppato: You must have the register of the people having gone there to check if there is a leakage.
14:25:780Anna Stoppato: Otherwise, we are not complying with the sufficient risk level. So that is the importance of all the measure that we are putting in, in, in place.
14:41:370Anna Stoppato: But, I mean, the situation is not so bad as I was saying. I was, I mean, if I told you all these kind of things, it's to give you a reason and hope that the world outside these walls is still looking for you as engineers to get out.
14:57:300Anna Stoppato: Please, quickly. And then, come and solve these kind of problems in the easiest way.
15:04:440Anna Stoppato: And I would say, from the industrial perspective, in the cheapest way, as well, for the… for the ship designer and ship builder. But, I mean, from the… all the activities we have done, and the projects we have done, the first prototypes, and etc, and working with the classification societies at small scale, with small system, and etc.
15:25:250Anna Stoppato: I mean, we…
15:27:50Anna Stoppato: IMO started to develop draft entering guidelines for hydrogen fuel ships. They were released a couple of months ago, not ages ago. So, it is understood that the carbonization potential of the hydrogen, so it is welcome from the maritime sector.
15:46:430Anna Stoppato: It is… it identified distinct hydrogen safety challenges, the one that I listed in the… in the… at the beginning of, of this, of this lecture, and
15:59:590Anna Stoppato: I mean, IMO may also rely on various, I mean, committees and etc. In the… in Europe, there is the European Commission that is, making use of another body, which is EMSA, European Maritime Safety Association, as an organization, association.
16:19:420Anna Stoppato: Okay, but the first three, I'm sure. European Maritis Safety Association, that's not an association, it's a… it's a… it's an agency of the European Commission.
16:31:20Anna Stoppato: which is putting extra effort regarding rules of IMO in order to ensure that rules and safety on maritime travel in Europe are… is ensured. Of course, they work in synergy, because you don't want that IMO say something and NMSA say something different in a different way. You want to have coordinated body of
16:55:990Anna Stoppato: laws on how to do the… to build the… to build the ships. But EMSA is the way
17:02:540Anna Stoppato: On which the European Commission is collecting information on projects, is making studies with experts, with Glatification Society, to define what are the technical solutions, what are the risks, the problems, and the technical solution that can be implemented in order to speed up and accelerate the uptake of hydrogen in maritime.
17:24:470Anna Stoppato: It's doing also for nuclear, right? So there are different chapters, but they are doing exactly this. And they are pre… they are doing…
17:32:100Anna Stoppato: I mean, brilliant reports, very specific for maritime, in saying where are the problems, where you have to
17:38:940Anna Stoppato: address the problems, and what are the standard solutions that EQ can implement. Then, I mean, the draft infringing guidelines, they have three parts. The first is general provision, goals, definition, and etc. Just to tell you, to tell you how innovative we are
17:55:350Anna Stoppato: Until… two years ago, in Aymo, which is kind… IMO is in maritime, Aymo is like gold.
18:05:80Anna Stoppato: Writing and updating the Bible.
18:07:940Anna Stoppato: More or less.
18:09:650Anna Stoppato: So, which is the rules for maritime?
18:13:370Anna Stoppato: So, I know, until a couple of days of years ago, neither had a definition of what a fuel cell is.
18:22:500Anna Stoppato: So, working on fuel cells for maritime, before IMO defines what a fuel cell is, I mean, gives you a kind of hint of how innovative… how much… how innovative are the systems? We are talking…
18:37:550Anna Stoppato: Today, So, we are really the Indiana Jones of R&D in maritime.
18:44:270Anna Stoppato: today.
18:45:720Anna Stoppato: Then you have specific technical chapters, and you must have the insulation up to this millimeters, and you must have a little, this volume of ventilation when, if you are storing hydrogen, so on and so forth, and etc. And then, cross-cutting annexes, how to do azid, hazard identification, how to do alternative design, and how to train the people, and so on and so forth.
19:10:90Anna Stoppato: This is drafts interim. So, this means that it's the first draft distributed for all the stakeholders at IMO to receive comments and come to the
19:20:540Anna Stoppato: to them… to them… to a final… a final regulation. So, who are working… who is now actively working on allowing hydrogen to be, included on board? Well, I know with the IGF code, the one that is built for LNG, that you can use in… in analogy in order to address this. Then there is the CCC.
19:45:410Anna Stoppato: Committee of Cargo… Subcommittee of Cargo and Carriage Containers, which is developing, rules, for hydrogen to be used on cargo.
19:57:240Anna Stoppato: But it's important for crews, because they are not doing the work 3 or 4 times. They are doing here, and they are expanding for other kind of ships. So, we are already monitoring this CCC subcommittee.
20:11:450Anna Stoppato: Then, International Session Working Group, ESWG, on Alternative Fuels, that is working, again, on alternative fuels, including hydrogen. And then, the SOLAS, SOLAS stands for Safety of Life at Sea, and it is a book
20:29:40Anna Stoppato: one of the very books of the bubble of, of, of IMO, that, the IMO started to draft, when, the Titanic,
20:41:510Anna Stoppato: accident happened. So they said, well, Houston, you have a problem, we have a problem, we must do something in order to protect the safety of lives at sea.
20:52:170Anna Stoppato: Because there is another important aspect that I would like to point out that is relevant to maritime. If you have any accident on board a ship.
21:01:830Anna Stoppato: the actual regulation, Says that the safest place where to stay in case of any accident is
21:11:510Anna Stoppato: On board the ship.
21:13:470Anna Stoppato: Think about the situation. Would you like to sit in the middle of the ocean, on something which is very big, with a lot of devices, even in February, and with a lot of people that can use, I mean, can help you, in, and support you? Or would you like…
21:30:210Anna Stoppato: in the middle of the ocean, in the water. Maybe with a small, with a small, safety lifeboat. The solution is this one. Whatever happens on board a ship.
21:43:130Anna Stoppato: The ship must answer and be capable to return to the closest our board, which is available.
21:52:670Anna Stoppato: So, all the regulation that is going to be developed with new technology starts from these assumptions. You have to minimize any risk on worship.
22:04:150Anna Stoppato: In order to ensure that if anything happens, you have maybe a failure on a certain area, on a certain device, but the ship is capable to stand and have the autonomy to come back slowly, slowly, slowly to the closest harbour, bringing all the people on board at safe at the harbor.
22:22:860Anna Stoppato: That is the philosophy on which all the regulations at IMO are developed. Then, I told you about EMSA, European Maritis Safety Agency ng Association Agency. Now it came to my mind.
22:37:410Anna Stoppato: And they are doing a lot of very nice and technical reports. And then you have the classification societies. Do you remember the classification I mentioned to you before?
22:47:180Anna Stoppato: they are kind of, they have 2, 3, 4 hats at the same time, because they are working, with the ship owner, with our ships. They are consulting us in technical, specific… on specific items. They are certifying to the flight administration, etc. But they are also, they acquire all the knowledge
23:07:330Anna Stoppato: Tool from different projects to know what are the best tactics that can be done in maritime for a certain new technology like hydrogen.
23:16:580Anna Stoppato: what happens? That they can… this is my wife, I'm sorry. They have the knowledge to pro…
23:26:550Anna Stoppato: I'm silencing, then I will, I will,
23:32:90Anna Stoppato: I'm going to suffer then this evening, yeah, for not having answered to all the messages, but I'm here with you, so… and sorry. So, they have all the capabilities to say, according to me.
23:48:890Anna Stoppato: I know that the best products up to now are these, this, this, this, and that.
23:54:520Anna Stoppato: So… This…
23:56:710Anna Stoppato: They can create a kind of sub-books recognized by them, that say, if you are doing the ship like this, then it's easy for me to approve it, and I can trust you that you are close
24:14:220Anna Stoppato: to the prescriptive regulation. So, Lloyd Register, RENA, DMVU, and all the big ones already issued their, type of… the classification…
24:31:630Anna Stoppato: classification society guidelines for hydrogen that, of course, are different. They are not harmonized, because they want to make business out of it. But it's something, and they are also converging in bringing this knowledge at a more level in order to make it feasible.
24:48:240Anna Stoppato: To have new regulations.
24:50:580Anna Stoppato: So, these are the main players in the regulatory field. We are also, of course, contributing to EMSA, entirely contributing to IMO, because you need to be an association or a member state in order to have a… take the floor at IMO, and we are working, of course, with the classification society.
25:13:350Anna Stoppato: What is Classification Society doing? With their books? They can give approval in principle at the beginning. I mean, they can give, first, the technology qualification.
25:24:00Anna Stoppato: So, the system you are putting on board are fit for purpose, the fuel cell, the conjunction, the junction, and etc. are fit for purpose to be put on board, then the system can be approved in principle, and then you can have the type approval.
25:40:530Anna Stoppato: of the ship, and they are looking not only at stand-alone technologies, they are also looking that the prescriptive operational measures that you are put in place in order to reduce the risk are properly implemented also by the ship owner.
26:00:860Anna Stoppato: The… the approval pathway from the Classification Society, which is important if you want to come to the, to the end of,
26:10:20Anna Stoppato: At the end of the story with a hydrogen ship, requires you to have a technology qualification on the systems, then approval in principle overall, then the type approval for components, and the alternative design approved with class approval.
26:27:310Anna Stoppato: just keep, keep strong for a few minutes. I want to talk to you about the project. The project is, Waves to the Future.
26:39:30Anna Stoppato: And, in this project, which is funded under the Resiliency Recovery Fund, the PNRR, in Italy, is supporting us in developing different technologies.
26:51:830Anna Stoppato: hydrogen technologies to be put on board. They develop an alibi green power generation system, so as a combined cycle with a hydrogen turbine made for power generation on board ship.
27:03:130Anna Stoppato: No, sorry, that is board package 2, sorry, and neither remember my project, that's… that's okay. One hour and a half is too much for me. Okay, the developing green power generation system means the fuel cell, but we are not producing the fuel cell. We are bringing and buying fuel cell, both pen and software, and we are creating the module in
27:27:200Anna Stoppato: In a container, which is a containerized model with fuel cells.
27:32:310Anna Stoppato: to be put on board. We are doing this at the record power of 6MW.
27:38:90Anna Stoppato: two containers of 3 megawatt to be put on board. Do you remember, I mean, heavy duty in trucks, 250 kilowatt?
27:46:370Anna Stoppato: We, today, are at, state of the art, is 6 MHz.
27:51:190Anna Stoppato: put on board a large cruise ship is not enough. I tell you, it's not enough. But for the ship we are building, the Viking, this ensures a zero-emission navigation.
28:06:580Anna Stoppato: When in Fjords. The ship can stay.
28:10:620Anna Stoppato: Only on those 6 megawatts, because it's a smaller ship, of course.
28:16:290Anna Stoppato: We are more or less in, mid, mid of, of our journey. I mean.
28:24:60Anna Stoppato: We… in order to develop this, we are at 350,000 hours of development, with 700 people involved in the development of these wire systems.
28:36:500Anna Stoppato: At the moment, we have the fuel stack PEM evolution controlling system developed.
28:42:630Anna Stoppato: And we are going to install them on board, and the final ship is going to be delivered by the end of this year. And our subsidiary in Bali is Autofrisk Innovatory, developing internal combustion engines, not so big for this kind of ships, because they reach 1 megawatt.
29:03:270Anna Stoppato: but for maritime applications. So for smaller ships, this is fit for purpose.
29:09:730Anna Stoppato: War Package 2 is developing, a concept of a green,
29:14:680Anna Stoppato: green combined cycle gas turbine, and we're working with NEA in, in Lazio, to have all these, tests, at, at small scale and onshore. So this is a technology that, is a bit, beyond,
29:33:00Anna Stoppato: final application. We are developing
29:35:330Anna Stoppato: 4 application, whereas the installation of PEM on board ships and the containerized module is, I mean, TRL9 and plus, because we are putting it on board right now in our yard on Ancona.
29:49:990Anna Stoppato: And then, the integration of this technology on both ships. What technology do we have selected? The PEM?
29:56:460Anna Stoppato: hydrogen storage, liquid hydrogen storage with them onboard ships for 6 MHz, 2 models of 3 MHz, and then another 6MW with solidified fuel cells that are capable to run with energy and also with hydrogen.
30:16:590Anna Stoppato: Okay.
30:17:680Anna Stoppato: Last rush, just give me one more secondo, and
30:24:940Anna Stoppato: Because I saw that here in the USB stick, I have a little surprise, I was not,
30:33:200Anna Stoppato: syncing I had… Can you see?
30:38:710Anna Stoppato: Not yet, huh?
30:46:790Anna Stoppato: It was a video, the official video, just 2 minutes of, no, it's not working. Don't worry.
30:54:620Anna Stoppato: No video. I can sing the music, I can play the music of the videos, if you like, but probably you are fed up of, listening my voice. So, thank you very much, but you have a question? Do you have any question?
31:08:20Anna Stoppato: One second. Do you see?
31:12:280Anna Stoppato: Next slide. You can see later on, here, the video. So, the question is much more important than the video.
31:30:850Anna Stoppato: Well, taking the fuel cells on board and putting on board is not difficult. You can bring it and put it on board.
31:39:60Anna Stoppato: What is difficult is that you have a system which is not certified according to the rules, and if in a certain fuel cell, you can minimize the risk, just to put it in open air.
31:52:690Anna Stoppato: And then, I mean, the risk of leakage is negligible, because you are on open air. If you are polting under the deck.
32:00:590Anna Stoppato: We are facing new difficulties. The first time, I told you that we developed, in our learning curve, we developed a lab in Trieste, and then we dismantled the lab, and we put 140 on board a ship. But it was a test and a trial in that case. I mean, the ship is sailing, the system is working, and so on and so forth. But also in that case.
32:24:900Anna Stoppato: We did not solve all the solution, all the problems regarding what happens if we have a leakage inside the belly of the ship, and etc. So, the ship was in a room, but
32:37:870Anna Stoppato: for regulatory purpose, was considered to be like in open air, because it was plenty of ventilation and etc. But we addressed all these kind of things. Then, other kind of things that, that… why it is difficult. You… you have a… I mean, you must have…
32:55:570Anna Stoppato: hydrogen on board, if you want to use it, okay? So, you must keep it there, so you must have terms that are approved for my double attribution, but that's not enough. At a certain point, you get to the huggle.
33:08:120Anna Stoppato: And, your tanks are nearly empty, so you want to refuel. Bunkering fuel, non-regulated by AIMO, with system that has not been for maritime, that has not, never been developed,
33:22:420Anna Stoppato: I want to make it difficult with people on board, because bankering a fuel in a ship which is without anybody on board is much easier in terms of regulation than bankering a ship when you have a lot of people drinking on the sand deck. So.
33:39:170Anna Stoppato: it's this kind of complexities that you have to… that arise simply in putting these new technologies on board. And then you have systems that are big, but quite light.
33:55:830Anna Stoppato: And this is changing the balance of the ship, so you will have to intervene the design phase in order to compensate this, because you have to take care about the center of gravity of the ship, and the stability of the ship, and etc. So…
34:10:690Anna Stoppato: it's not something that is relevant to the fuel cell itself, but it is the marinization that is super complex, and we are the Indiana Jones of this marinization for hydrogen system, fuel cells, and bunkering, etc. But I want to be very
34:29:460Anna Stoppato: open for you. I mean, we are developing technologies also in partnership with our ship… shipbuilders, with our ship owners, sorry. In case… the case of a refueling hydrogen, in this case… in the case of Viking, the ship Viking, which is the one that you can see here.
34:46:970Anna Stoppato: Who solves, I mean, making a kind of trick.
34:50:960Anna Stoppato: We are not doing bankering. They have adopted, and we have adopted, a system for which you take the tank, you remove the tank, you put a new tanker.
35:01:100Anna Stoppato: plenty of hydrogen inside, which is solving all the issues you might have in, is the bunkering action that you are taking, that you are doing, according to the rules and safe enough and etc. So that is the large complexity that we have to solve.
35:17:300Anna Stoppato: Regarding hydrogen integrated on board the ship.
35:24:380Anna Stoppato: Any other question? We talk about, Both, oil, but…
35:30:50Anna Stoppato: also on the master. Yeah. I'll give you also, master trade, or, the cheater, or… No, no, no, not directly. I mean, it's, I know sets some rules that regards the center of gravity, the, the buoyancy, there's some… some… but, I mean, they are… I mean, they are not prescriptive because they like, to be prescriptive. They are prescriptive because
35:54:990Anna Stoppato: they come from common sense, from, novel, novel architects. So, it's, it's something… So, I, I'm, I'm, I'm not,
36:06:310Anna Stoppato: I'm not saying that Ironman is putting rules of mass on board ship. It is the same fact that design and a ship must follow some
36:18:660Anna Stoppato: rules, because the ship must be stable enough, safe enough, and so on and so forth. So, if you replace something with some other else, you have to go back and start back again to some new ship.
36:34:260Anna Stoppato: Any other?
36:36:380Anna Stoppato: Question?
36:38:510Anna Stoppato: Yeah. It's, like, for them.
36:48:310Anna Stoppato: Suddenly, all these… Yourselves.
36:57:280Anna Stoppato: Very good question. So, why I don't like fuel cells? Because, I mean, I mean, we are not selling fuel cells. We are selling ships. And it's like selling cars. If you put yourself in your car, if you press the accelerator, you want the car
37:14:540Anna Stoppato: That goes, no? If you have a Fiat, it will be slower. I mean, if you have a Ferrari, it will be very fast, but you have some expectations. If you sell a cruise ship, more or less it is the same. I cannot go to the customer and say, dear customer.
37:29:650Anna Stoppato: Please consider that you have a fuel cell, and the fuel cells have some dynamics that are not compatible with the internal combustion engines, and blah blah blah, and so forth. They simply do not care. So, in case of sudden modification, the fuel cell are not coping with that.
37:47:230Anna Stoppato: So, the good guys, they can have a lot of efforts, but they cannot follow the ramp up of the load.
37:57:560Anna Stoppato: So, what can you do in order to cover this excessive demand that you cannot meet with a fuel cell?
38:04:920Anna Stoppato: Pardon.
38:07:520Anna Stoppato: Nope.
38:08:570Anna Stoppato: Because they are slow as well. So this is a very good ques… this is a question for the… for the final test, huh?
38:14:890Anna Stoppato: Okay, this is a good one.
38:18:80Anna Stoppato: Great, and that is the answer. You can never install fuels on board ships without having a pack of batteries close by, because batteries are doing exactly this service. When you have a high ramp-up, the batteries intervene and supply the power that the fuel cell is not capable to supply.
38:39:830Anna Stoppato: That was a good question, that was a good answer.
38:44:160Anna Stoppato: So I was totally, I mean, useless here.
38:50:650Anna Stoppato: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
39:00:490Anna Stoppato: Oh, deed.
39:01:840Anna Stoppato: And here, you can allocate,
39:11:330Anna Stoppato: Are you, for now, studying for continuing education?
39:20:530Anna Stoppato: No, I… the… the acoustic of the room was not, is not so good, so I didn't pick up your… fully your question, so…
39:32:820Anna Stoppato: Start off.
39:34:160Anna Stoppato: I'm sorry, sorry.
39:36:470Anna Stoppato: You're… Oh, no.
39:39:970Anna Stoppato: You start pumping.
39:42:20Anna Stoppato: The nuclear, you say, the nuclear. No, no, no, no, no, I mean, it's, that's… I mean, hydrogen, which I say is quite regulatory immature.
39:54:140Anna Stoppato: which is not anymore fully true, because, I mean, there are drafting guidelines, so it's not fully mature, I would say, with a fine like this.
40:03:120Anna Stoppato: But it's by far closer than nuclear power. There are some rules on nuclear power for, for ships, but I would say that, in total.
40:15:870Anna Stoppato: excluding novel, novel vessels, but commercial ships, fueled, I mean, powered by nuclear power at about 6 or 7 worldwide, and usually they have a big problem. When they try to call a port, the port denied the entrance.
40:33:680Anna Stoppato: So…
40:34:550Anna Stoppato: If we want to go in that direction, and it is a problem of the entire sector, now there are new technologies, like the small model and reactor, and so on and so forth, we can work on that, but there is a lot of work to be done regarding public acceptance, and ports acceptability, and rules for safety, and availability of the technology, and etc.
40:58:250Anna Stoppato: I mean, we are just at the beginning of this curve, and I…
41:03:490Anna Stoppato: can… I can say with a bit of confidence, Do you think I'm older?
41:10:940Anna Stoppato: Do you think I'm older? Yes, I'm older! No, no.
41:16:880Anna Stoppato: No, no, no. Okay, so, thank you, thank you for… the correct answer was no, in degrees. So, I'm not so old. I still have some business life ahead. I'm not sure I'm going to retire and see the first nuclear
41:34:00Anna Stoppato: I mean, commercial nuclear ship sailing. Maybe it accelerates, but I mean, hydrogen ship is going to be delivered in 2026. Nuclear-powered commercial vessel.
41:48:760Anna Stoppato: A bit beyond. Then, it depends from macroeconomic also, tensions and etc. Will BDO available? Can European countries, international countries, develop alternative fuels and etc? Or is it easier to take a nuclear plant, an SMR, and put it on board? It's not easy, it's much more complex than hydrogen.
42:12:680Anna Stoppato: I spent one hour and a half and say that hydrogen is complex, but we are very good at dealing with it, and we are the best in the world to do it, but nuclear power is even worse in terms of complexity.
42:30:990Anna Stoppato: Okay. Bye!
42:34:140Anna Stoppato: We have, yeah, excellent time with my colleague, but I'm staying here, so if you have any other questions later on, I'm not, I'm not running… What about your…