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Transcript
00:26:750Anna Stoppato: Other times, we had problems in recording the audio.
00:31:190Anna Stoppato: But I think that now it is recording.
00:34:810Anna Stoppato: Mmm… Okay, so today I would like to show you some, some…
00:42:720Anna Stoppato: Two, or mainly one, then another two, projects related to the use of hydrogen, and to also the production of hydrogen, but,
00:55:460Anna Stoppato: Again, the focus is the system, which starts from the production, but arrives to the consumption of hydrogen, in which my group is involved, only to know that, really, even if we are energy engineers, we are not
01:13:920Anna Stoppato: we are not chemical, engineering, we are not,
01:22:450Anna Stoppato: chemistry people, we can be involved in psych… in some… in this kind of a project.
01:28:650Anna Stoppato: The first one is this, which has been concluded some months ago. The name is Mautzen, and as you can see, it's the model of saving electrical energy, so the focus was on electrical energy from organic waste fermentation.
01:46:840Anna Stoppato: And even if it is not in the title.
01:51:670Anna Stoppato: The main focus was to, produce hydrogen, starting from the…
01:56:910Anna Stoppato: From the wastewater and from the organic waste.
02:02:510Anna Stoppato: But, not only to produce using biological, so it is not our field, using biological treatment. But, the other, and this was not what we did, but also to, integrate the chain.
02:20:100Anna Stoppato: From the… after the hydrogen production, so the hydrogen separation from the other products, then the storage, the energy conversion chain, arriving to the production of electricity, but also to assess the energy and environmental sustainability.
02:35:860Anna Stoppato: Of the process and the industrial, replicability,
02:40:530Anna Stoppato: Through energy analysis and lifecycle assessment, which were our, our needs, my group, focus.
02:50:630Anna Stoppato: Okay, sweet.
02:53:850Anna Stoppato: Okay, so Don, this is,
02:56:260Anna Stoppato: What the, okay, the, the… the… one of the main, demeanor,
03:05:560Anna Stoppato: participant, or the leader, was, Veritas, which, you know is one of, is a moot utility in, Venezia.
03:15:110Anna Stoppato: They already have… they already have these,
03:20:460Anna Stoppato: chain, so they have a smaller… okay, this is a picture, they have only the PV panel, and from the PV panel, they produce, by means of an electrolyzer system, they produce, hydrogen, which is then,
03:38:190Anna Stoppato: Presently, they have a PEM fuel cell.
03:43:40Anna Stoppato: But they can… in their idea, they have also the opportunity to sell it.
03:51:250Anna Stoppato: Okay. This is… this is a simplified picture, and sorry, it is written in Italian, but what I want to do is this one.
03:59:940Anna Stoppato: They, have, organic waste, they, okay, one step. Demo utility, of course, they participate, but the idea is that this kind of process
04:13:580Anna Stoppato: can be replicied in other mode utility. There is this one. In moot utility, they need to treat the wastes, also the organic wastes, and usually they need electricity. They need electricity not only for the process itself, but since the multi-utility
04:31:530Anna Stoppato: Exactly, as… the name multi-utility, means that they have multi-utility is not,
04:39:560Anna Stoppato: the different wood utility can have different utilities, but very often, they also distribute electricity. They have the…
04:48:410Anna Stoppato: the role of collecting and dispose, waste is, very often they have also to distribute water. They have, the… very often the lightening system in the towns and so on. So they need,
05:04:260Anna Stoppato: electricity. So the idea is, instead of consuming energy in order to treat the wastewater and the organic wastes.
05:13:220Anna Stoppato: Can we produce electricity?
05:16:680Anna Stoppato: And then, use this electricity for this process, but also for the other processes which are needed by… which are
05:24:580Anna Stoppato: supplied by the multi-utility itself. Presently, the… we have two possible, ways, one, to treat the wastes. Here, we have the incinerator, but usually, also in Varezia, they don't use the incinerator for the
05:44:70Anna Stoppato: organic oasis. The other is, sorry, here we have the acronym. We have usually the anaerobic digestion. Okay, so usually they treat the oasis using anaerobic digestion in order to produce biometal or biogas, which is then used
06:03:440Anna Stoppato: to produce electricity. The idea is, can we have a different process, what we call here dark fermentation, in order to produce hydrogen instead of metal?
06:16:810Anna Stoppato: And is this process better than the traditional production of biogas and biometon by means of the anaerobic digestion?
06:26:540Anna Stoppato: And now we will see the answer. Of course, it is clear, you have already seen many times during this course, that now
06:36:990Anna Stoppato: One of the general topics is that of exploring all the possible solutions where hydrogen can be produced and can be,
06:47:50Anna Stoppato: And can be used as alternative as of present,
06:53:170Anna Stoppato: phases. So it is also possible, and we will see, that, hydrogen As some problems,
07:01:270Anna Stoppato: can be a good substitute, but it is not perfect, but we will see that. But in any case, we are studying this one. The most important reaction, which takes place in the dark fermentation, the name dark means that it is done, not,
07:20:540Anna Stoppato: So, without light, while anaerobic digestion usually use bacterias which need light.
07:29:40Anna Stoppato: So this is the main, the main reaction, which takes place from… so that is retaining the class of glucose.
07:37:870Anna Stoppato: With water is transformed.
07:40:590Anna Stoppato: Into a gas with… Hydrogen.
07:46:140Anna Stoppato: But there are also other products, so this is the main… this is the dark fermentation itself, but we have also other reactions, which produce, for example, water, which produce methane, which can produce
07:58:860Anna Stoppato: Many other elements, and you know that which element will be produced are also related to the composition of the initial waste.
08:08:470Anna Stoppato: Okay, this is only a little more complex, but we will go better into the details, because one, as I told you, the company itself already has a PEM, so a polymeric
08:23:880Anna Stoppato: membrane fuel cell, but as you know, these fuel cells need hydrogen very, very pure, more than 99.9995%, while it is clear that the hydrogen which is produced by dark fermentation is very dirty.
08:43:570Anna Stoppato: Okay, so we have more or less, in the initial one, 20% of hydrogen, but then we have metan, we have a lot of carbon dioxide, we can have also other elements.
08:54:470Anna Stoppato: So one of, of the… not of the initial, goals, but after some months of, exploration, one idea was this. But instead of producing this hydrogen, which is dirty, and then,
09:11:600Anna Stoppato: Purify it in many, many different steps in order to obtain a hydrogen with the same grade of purity as the hydrogen produced by the electrolyzer.
09:22:210Anna Stoppato: and later using it in the PEM. Can we…
09:28:140Anna Stoppato: accept a dirty, dirtier hydrogen and using it in a different kind of fuel cell. For example, in a solid oxide fuel cell.
09:39:480Anna Stoppato: Of course, the efficiency will be lower, but we can skip many steps of purification, because, as we can see, the fuel… the solid oxide fuel cell can accept, but we already seen, but we will see better with some experimental analysis that you can accept. So, this was this idea. So, as you can see.
10:01:650Anna Stoppato: Here, there is the process of production of,
10:06:10Anna Stoppato: hydrogen, the storage, and then I will say you something about the storage, and then we have two possible paths. The first is,
10:14:600Anna Stoppato: A first purification, and then immediately they use in the soft, or a second step of purification, the mixing with this hydrogen, with the hydrogen coming from the electrolyzer, and then using the
10:27:820Anna Stoppato: In the proton exchange membrane fuel cell.
10:31:930Anna Stoppato: Now, very quickly, because this was not our work, but there was a lot of experimental work on the production of
10:42:530Anna Stoppato: Of the hydrogens, or these are…
10:46:490Anna Stoppato: All the work which was done, in order to produce the… The organic substrate that,
10:55:880Anna Stoppato: can be used inside the, dark fermentation. Then again,
11:02:720Anna Stoppato: Again, it was a small part which was also studied by Haas, which was the possibility to use the hydrodynamic cavitation to prepare
11:13:940Anna Stoppato: the mix of larger biomass. You know that usually cavitation is something that we want to avoid in our machinery, but the product… the cavitation, so the bubbles.
11:25:230Anna Stoppato: vocabulation.
11:26:740Anna Stoppato: I can have a mini,
11:29:880Anna Stoppato: different uses. One of them is in the pretreatment of the substrate, because they permit to give more homogenization of the substrate, where we have different kind of wastes. We mix wastes with the sludges, and so on.
11:48:700Anna Stoppato: In some… so this is a commercial hydrodynamic habitation machine, so they use a pump in order to produce the
12:00:500Anna Stoppato: the cavitation, in our lab, we are preparing in, I think, a few weeks, we will have a similar element, a similar, not similar, a circuit where we, in a small future, can, analyze this, this kind of system.
12:19:10Anna Stoppato: And also, we will use a hydrody cavitation also for analyzer.
12:24:470Anna Stoppato: Other possible use of cavitation, for example, for the purification of water, but this is
12:32:360Anna Stoppato: Okay, then very, very quickly, these are the design of the different fermenters. This is the small fermenter of 4 liters. This is a bigger one of 400 liters.
12:42:730Anna Stoppato: Of course, we didn't participate directly to the fermenter,
12:48:540Anna Stoppato: design. This, very quick, we don't go into the detail, but this is the gas, sorry, the purification system of the gas, in order that it is
13:00:860Anna Stoppato: ready for the, PM.
13:04:910Anna Stoppato: the sulfurization process, I go quickly because we don't… or we didn't work directly on these specific processes. The deoxygenation process.
13:18:60Anna Stoppato: And then, the process related to the storage. Again, these elements were all bought, for the system. We have a compression system and,
13:30:670Anna Stoppato: This is, storage. Since, they, in this process, we… This is a stock,
13:41:390Anna Stoppato: stationary system, and so the problem of the volume of the storage is not very important. The decision was to arrive to compressor pressures of around 30 bars, you know, that usually
13:57:610Anna Stoppato: In commercial, tanks, we reach very, very higher value of pressures.
14:04:990Anna Stoppato: And then, the hydrogen separation by means of membranes, and by means of chemical absorption.
14:15:200Anna Stoppato: Last part, and now… now I go very quickly. This is the PM fuel cell, which is a commercial fuel cell, and these are its characteristics.
14:27:830Anna Stoppato: And, but now we will see something better. This is the commercial, no, not the commercial, sorry, the,
14:37:160Anna Stoppato: pilot, solid oxide fuel cell that was investigated. This is a general slide, I will see something of new.
14:50:00Anna Stoppato: we don't need to go into the detail, but, because I cannot go into more details, but,
14:58:840Anna Stoppato: This cell was built under the designer of the Department of Chemistry of this university, the DISC, using new material, especially for the catalysts.
15:15:600Anna Stoppato: Okay, now… what I want, okay, to do, with you,
15:24:260Anna Stoppato: what was our role? Our roles… sorry, I'm sorry, because some…
15:29:510Anna Stoppato: Some parts were not completely, translated.
15:33:270Anna Stoppato: To build the model of the system. This is generally what we had to analyze. These are other pictures coming from the plant, and then…
15:46:270Anna Stoppato: Sorry. These are the first, this is, the… Hmm.
15:54:790Anna Stoppato: Again, we didn't do this, but we took the result, and I will show you what we did. This is the small reactor, the 4-liter reactor, and here you can see all the elements that maintain the temperature inside.
16:12:110Anna Stoppato: And done now.
16:14:350Anna Stoppato: Okay, and these are the results. I show very quickly the results, only to show you what is interesting for us is mainly the production of hydrogen, which is this line.
16:26:260Anna Stoppato: Look at this orange line.
16:28:590Anna Stoppato: This is the specific production of hydrogen over the kilogram of volatile solid element inside the waste.
16:42:790Anna Stoppato: And this is the production of meat and the green one inside the dark fermentation. Only one thing, and I show this because,
16:54:560Anna Stoppato: for us most important, this aspect. You can see that in the pilot, there are weeks separated week by week. Why? Because in the… since this is a labor of a university, they couldn't work during the weekends.
17:11:359Anna Stoppato: And so they could put the substrate only during the weekdays, and so it is clear that every week, there is a decrease in the production, or better, there is
17:25:599Anna Stoppato: A peak, then a decrease, done.
17:29:150Anna Stoppato: We don't know what can happen, because then, for today's, we don't have the
17:36:480Anna Stoppato: the feed or the substrate, and so every week we start again from a very slow, a very small value. Why I show you this? Because this,
17:48:820Anna Stoppato: this problem, we tried to solve this problem using a model. Okay, so while our colleagues, they are biotechnology, they did everything in the lab, and I will assure you, using a code, we tried to replicate this reaction.
18:07:940Anna Stoppato: In order to study what can happen if, instead of stopping every weekend, or not stopping, but…
18:16:320Anna Stoppato: Alone, the reaction stops because it is not feeded. It is not fed.
18:23:210Anna Stoppato: what, can happen. Okay, these are other results. Of course, if you can see, again, They are…
18:32:540Anna Stoppato: as you can see, not very, very clear. And then, a second, step, they did also,
18:42:50Anna Stoppato: some analysis in the other,
18:45:520Anna Stoppato: In the other, plant. Again, it is, they call it semi-continous, so it means that, they…
18:57:670Anna Stoppato: They fill, only 5 days a week. And again, you can see, as every end week.
19:05:740Anna Stoppato: We start again with the reaction, and these are the results.
19:09:700Anna Stoppato: Okay, in any case, these are the most important data, and okay, I summarized there. I think that it is important that what they understood is that, more or less, for every ton of waste, we can produce around
19:27:250Anna Stoppato: Of course, these are not precise data, because, of course, they depend on the,
19:34:790Anna Stoppato: On the composition of the waste, and this is, again, a problem, but more or less, we can produce 10 cubic meter of hydrogen and 70 cubic meter of metron.
19:45:120Anna Stoppato: from the anaerobic digestion, while in the traditional anaerobic digestion, we produce 60 cubic meter of meat and so this was one very important result.
19:58:260Anna Stoppato: Because we understood that we did our… and now I will show you.
20:03:860Anna Stoppato: how this result becomes energy results. That, from the dark fermentation, not only we produce hydrogen, but due to the
20:14:160Anna Stoppato: separation of hydrogen from the
20:19:680Anna Stoppato: and the separation of the hydrogen from the product gas, we can also improve the production of methane, okay? So, with this double stage, so we take
20:34:390Anna Stoppato: for some days, and now how many… we are deciding, probably around 10 days, we produce hydrogen, then we…
20:43:270Anna Stoppato: Or battery. In continuous way, we take the hydrogen.
20:46:950Anna Stoppato: After 10 days, the substrate is moved from the reactor of the dark fermentation to the reactor of the anaerobic digestion, and there, there will be the conclusion of the process with the anaerobic digestion, and globally speaking, not only we produce hydrogen, but we also produce more
21:05:960Anna Stoppato: Meeting done in the traditional one-step, one stage.
21:10:440Anna Stoppato: operation. Okay, and now, what we did with many students, with some PhD, a lot of, simulations. As you can see, here, we have three main, group of work. The first was the…
21:28:270Anna Stoppato: the founding of the elemental composition of biomass, and the simulation of the reactor.
21:37:740Anna Stoppato: Then the simulation of the, pre-treatment, and then, now your colleague wanted to analyze also one thing that, is not inside the process, but probably… sorry, is not inside the project.
21:54:360Anna Stoppato: but is analyzer, which is also the PV, it is the… Photocatalytic, production of hydrogen.
22:06:790Anna Stoppato: Okay, and so this is the same, the photo fermentation. Okay.
22:10:880Anna Stoppato: Why all this? As I told you, we need the lab, the experimental part in the lab, but in the lab, we cannot analyze everything.
22:22:210Anna Stoppato: or it means it needs a lot of time and a lot of costs. So, we built a MIDI model. The first one was a very large
22:32:620Anna Stoppato: Work made from, one of your colleagues, which analyzed, a lot of,
22:40:840Anna Stoppato: A lot of possible fruits, vegetables, sludges, and, of course, in the literature, and found which is their composition in terms of glucose, protein, and other elements.
22:54:490Anna Stoppato: And then… Introduced inside there.
22:59:380Anna Stoppato: a code. Now, I put some tables, but we have many, many more. For each of the possible, element of,
23:09:460Anna Stoppato: Vegetables and fruit and so on. Analyze the reaction.
23:15:670Anna Stoppato: The reaction inside the, inside the reactor.
23:21:190Anna Stoppato: So this is the Python,
23:23:990Anna Stoppato: So this is another thing, this is,
23:26:600Anna Stoppato: Sorry, this is the first part, because,
23:30:820Anna Stoppato: So these are, as you can see.
23:34:540Anna Stoppato: So it is not clear, but for each, kind of, element, eternalized, which are the, sorry, the composition, the different composition, and the first part is, you create many possible mixes.
23:51:800Anna Stoppato: Of fruits, the vegetables, and so on, and so, calculate the content of carbon, of hydrogen, of oxygen, of nitrogen, and so on, the protein, and so on.
24:01:490Anna Stoppato: So these are all the work.
24:03:950Anna Stoppato: And then…
24:06:300Anna Stoppato: what we have. Now, I will present you the results for some, of course, for a specific composition, but we can change the composition, and we can obtain different results. So, for example, he analyzed the same food waste that was studied in the lab, which was mainly based on fluid.
24:27:110Anna Stoppato: Because, also, for some reason,
24:31:950Anna Stoppato: for hygienic reason in the lab, they couldn't take exactly the waste, the organic waste. They took the waste from the markets, the fruit markets, so it is not exactly the same that we find in the organic waste, but it is a little more clean and sure. So.
24:50:20Anna Stoppato: Analyze this, and then you replicate
24:53:420Anna Stoppato: Many cases that he found in literature.
24:56:300Anna Stoppato: And again, he validated the model, and later on, he also analyzed different kind of possible composition.
25:06:370Anna Stoppato: In order to study.
25:09:420Anna Stoppato: what was its main goal? The first goal is to analyze which is the result in terms of hydrogen, and in terms of metron, and even if, and not only, but only the dynamic
25:24:180Anna Stoppato: response, because it is clear that all this reaction needs time, okay? While we are used, when we burn something, it burns immediately, and immediately we have the
25:35:970Anna Stoppato: the thermal energy. Also, in the photovoltaic, we have the sun, and immediately we have the electricity. All these processes need time, so we cannot think that we put, and after one minute, we have the results. As I told you, we need time, but…
25:53:540Anna Stoppato: the reaction, also. Some reaction… I've…
25:58:430Anna Stoppato: a part, some other reaction as a different… have a different path, so, we need, to…
26:05:210Anna Stoppato: Have the exact time inside the reactor in order that we have the product that we need, and we stop the reaction that we don't need.
26:17:370Anna Stoppato: So…
26:18:280Anna Stoppato: This is very important. So, this is the… I show you, this is the code that he made. He used Python for the first analysis. This is… these are graphs coming from Aspen.
26:33:400Anna Stoppato: Now I'll show you very, very quickly, but only to show you that the process is very, very complex, and he was able to analyze everything.
26:43:270Anna Stoppato: So these are very… no, I go very quickly because, of course, it is also difficult for us to understand without knowing exactly how the process is built, but only to show you how complex and how we can be able to do it. These are all the reactions that were inserted, so they code them.
27:03:140Anna Stoppato: And these are the results.
27:05:460Anna Stoppato: That I obtene.
27:08:680Anna Stoppato: Okay, these are again, sorry, it won't… I go very quickly, I won't… this is the same.
27:15:690Anna Stoppato: Then I show you better also the comparison, and then this was the work of a different colleague. We have also… I think it is there, yes.
27:27:400Anna Stoppato: We also insert all the parts related to purification, because, as we told.
27:35:120Anna Stoppato: We need… one important thing, we need to separate always if we have elements containing sulfur for each kind of USL. Then, if we want to use the PEM, we have to qualify to eliminate metan, CO, CO2,
27:55:580Anna Stoppato: And, water and oxygen.
27:59:430Anna Stoppato: if we go in the solid oxide difference cell, we can also leave all these elements. So this… now, again, I don't want to go into the detail, but I put all the possible
28:13:10Anna Stoppato: All the steps that were implemented, because if someone is interested, we…
28:17:760Anna Stoppato: Not during the lesson, but if it is possible to go inside each of them and, knowing how they were, they were, simulated.
28:29:330Anna Stoppato: Okay, so these are the results, and it was pos… there are positive results.
28:36:270Anna Stoppato: Done, okay, the last thing, but I will go better inside also this. It was simulated also the use of storage in metal hydrates, but I will show you later, better.
28:49:220Anna Stoppato: And so, only to show you, these are the results, as I told you, not only in terms of final composite… final production of hydrogen, but also, for example, to know how the different concentration
29:04:390Anna Stoppato: So the production of hydrogen and the, sorry, and the production of acid acetic, how they change during the time.
29:14:160Anna Stoppato: the kinetic of fermentation, these are the results, and these are the experimental range, so you can see that the model is very good. Of course, we cannot think that this model is able to give an error of 0%, or
29:29:590Anna Stoppato: Versus…
29:30:550Anna Stoppato: But it is able to show us what is convenient, for example, which kind of waste is better, or which kind of composition of waste is better than others. So, for example, we found that it is important that we have protein. So, for example, that we have meat inside the
29:51:400Anna Stoppato: the waste, even if it was not tested in our… in the lab. Again, we found that the use of sludges, it is important that we mix sludges with organic waste. It's not that we have only
30:08:210Anna Stoppato: waste, organic waste, and only slices, and so on. So all these results are very important, so I'm sorry, because I translate everything, but probably sometimes…
30:19:250Anna Stoppato: And these are the results. Okay, so these are also the… only to know also the profile of the temperature inside each element, and so on.
30:30:60Anna Stoppato: These are the results. Okay, and these are, again, all the process of, result of the condensation, absorption, and so on. I don't want to go…
30:41:140Anna Stoppato: Into the detailer.
30:43:630Anna Stoppato: what I want to show you is then this one. Again, related to our role, then we have this hydrogen, this dirty hydrogen, and this is the fuel cell. These are the data related to the fuel cell. I already show it to them.
31:01:780Anna Stoppato: And, these are the first tests which were done in the cell. As you can see, we tested the,
31:13:660Anna Stoppato: Two different… of course, this cell is very, very small, so you can see that we are speaking about millionaire, but as we have said, a real cell then is made by many different models, which are put in series, and in this case, they are also very small.
31:30:860Anna Stoppato: There are two different compositions. One hydrogen, one is dirt hydrogen. Of course, there is also argon. Argon is not a reactant, it's a diluent. They needed diluent in order to also to move, to transport
31:46:210Anna Stoppato: the hydrogen. I think that,
31:51:180Anna Stoppato: Okay, that… okay, here, now I show you better the results, but you can see that different temperature were tested, and you have on them
32:03:400Anna Stoppato: sorry, these curves, the curves, this similar to parables are related to the power, while the others are related to the voltage, so the potential. And, what you can see, so this is…
32:18:470Anna Stoppato: This is cleaned hydrogen, this is dirty. If you compare, you… and the different, lines, as I told you, are related to temperature. If you want, we can better compare it.
32:31:700Anna Stoppato: And, what they found is that, usually, the performance of the clean hydrogen are better. This is the same cell.
32:45:640Anna Stoppato: are better, okay, when we use pure hydrogen than when we use dirty hydrogen. But this not happens when the temperatures are very
32:58:900Anna Stoppato: No.
32:59:860Anna Stoppato: Because probably the use of, meat… no, this is not meat, I'm sorry, this is, of course, CO2 is not participating to the reaction, but, give some cocking effect, which increase a little bit the efficiency. So, not only, of course, at higher temperature.
33:19:680Anna Stoppato: The performances of pure hydrogen are better, but in any case, note that the quantity of hydrogen is the same in the two
33:27:270Anna Stoppato: In the two blends. But in one case, we have only yellow, and in the other, we have all soap.
33:33:210Anna Stoppato: carbon dioxide, but in any case, everything is feasible.
33:40:310Anna Stoppato: Okay, this is only to show you that,
33:43:910Anna Stoppato: These are… okay. And, again, in the fuel cell, the real fuel cell, we were able to do only few analyses, only with two… these two blends. And again, our goal was, but are we able to,
34:03:730Anna Stoppato: To have a model which is able to
34:07:210Anna Stoppato: replicate this, and able to analyze also different composition and different, because, of course, again, we know that with different races, we have different
34:19:929Anna Stoppato: Content of, carbon dioxide, and also… In…
34:26:679Anna Stoppato: We didn't… we were not able to do the analysis, also using metan with hydrogen, but we know that we can have also metan inside the
34:36:679Anna Stoppato: flue gases coming from the gases coming from the dark fermentation. So, again, we did, another analysis with a different code, which is called AVL Cruise, which is a code very, very complex. Here, you have only few, images related to the…
34:58:700Anna Stoppato: To the model itself, but it is a code which is able to simulate all the kinds of fuel cells.
35:07:640Anna Stoppato: And, of course, it was not our case, but if someone is interested, he's able also to analyze the use of fuel cell, for example, for transportation. So he's able also to connect the fuel cell to the engine with all the…
35:22:760Anna Stoppato: you know, all the steps, and to analyze the operation during… in a car. In our case, we analyze a static configuration, and so here are the results.
35:36:740Anna Stoppato: And so the first two lines represent the same pictures that I have already showed you, so comes from the yellow plant, while the other two comes from the…
35:51:220Anna Stoppato: From the simulation. And, of course, the data are not perfectly correct, but, we found, exactly with the code, the same trends.
36:03:730Anna Stoppato: and the same, the same trends, both comparing the two different blends, both comparing the different temperatures. So we can think that the model, can be a good model, and then…
36:17:20Anna Stoppato: Sorry you didn't.
36:18:340Anna Stoppato: Sure you, but, we were able also to analyze different kind of,
36:25:960Anna Stoppato: element, for example, introducing also nitrogen. I didn't present here all the results, because again, it is not our goal, but the model is able to simulate different blends of hydrogen, methane, CO2, also monoxide of carbon, if we have carbon monoxide, so…
36:46:270Anna Stoppato: Again,
36:47:670Anna Stoppato: as energy engineers, we were able to simulate. Usually, biotechnologies and chemistry are good in the experimental part, have more problems when we need to simulate, which is the other advantage of simulation, not only for this, but only for the first part that we… with the models.
37:09:600Anna Stoppato: we are able to scale up the system. So, in the lab, we have a very small fuel cell, of course, because…
37:18:110Anna Stoppato: for many different entries. We have a small reactor.
37:21:640Anna Stoppato: In the model, we can scale up.
37:25:950Anna Stoppato: With the models, and with the knowledge of engineers, we are able to do the proper skill-up, because we cannot say if the reactor is 10 times… everything is 10 times higher than what we found
37:40:710Anna Stoppato: In the lab, because you know that, there are some, for example, the heat exchange, the ratio between, surfaces and volume, the position of some things that can change. So, again, this model… now, we did the model for the small field cell, the next step will be to increase.
38:03:80Anna Stoppato: Maintaining the same geometry and the same elements, the same material of this mulch seal cell to scale up to
38:12:950Anna Stoppato: sell, for example, with the… with the size related close to 1MW, and to analyze the new performances. And the same
38:22:470Anna Stoppato: We did already something for the other part. We'll scale up all the reactor, all the elements of the pumps, and so on.
38:30:90Anna Stoppato: Okay, another thing that we are able to do, while the fuel cell present in lab is not reversible, we also were able to
38:40:30Anna Stoppato: simulated it as a reversible, so also for the production of hydrogen instead of only to the
38:47:350Anna Stoppato: consumption of hydrogen, but this is less interesting for the project, but it can be interesting. Okay, so these are the conclusions, but again, the conclusions are general.
39:01:260Anna Stoppato: The only… the only thing that we found the same conclusion that in the,
39:07:260Anna Stoppato: In the real plant, this is the same. And then, again, water, we also… I told you, of course, we are… the project is completed. I was… I skipped quickly in the first slide. The goal of the project was not to arrive to the commercialization.
39:26:400Anna Stoppato: the TRL is lower, but, to start, also, the…
39:33:140Anna Stoppato: As I told you, they scale up. So, for example, another goal, which was interesting for us, was to decrease the energy consumption of all the elements in the chain. One of them is the fermentation module, where we have some consumption of energy.
39:51:130Anna Stoppato: We, individuate
39:55:540Anna Stoppato: three, elements, but one of them is the most important. We are… we work on two, but one was the most important. The first is the consumption, of course, of the pump. We have to pump inside the
40:08:570Anna Stoppato: These lodges, or also the…
40:11:370Anna Stoppato: organic waste. There is the, propeller consumption, which is, which uses to mix,
40:19:780Anna Stoppato: to maintain mixed inside, and then there is the necessity to maintain the temperature inside the reactor, and so to take, the balance between the
40:32:40Anna Stoppato: the reaction and thermal dissipation with the environment. On this, we did a lot of efforts.
40:40:350Anna Stoppato: For example, studying how to improve, or better, to decrease the thermal dissipation. Your colleague, some colleagues made a lot of works, studying different possible materials, different possible configurations related to this, and as I show you, we're able to
40:58:300Anna Stoppato: decrease the consumption. So here, you have some different steps.
41:05:730Anna Stoppato: Okay, of course, I don't know why this is…
41:11:990Anna Stoppato: Okay, and so this is, for example, again, I'm sorry, it is written in Italia, this is… but this is not also important.
41:21:970Anna Stoppato: Okay, and okay. A second important aspect was related to the, sorry, I…
41:33:70Anna Stoppato: was sure that it was… probably I… okay, these are the results. Another important were related to the mechanical agitator, so the propeller, which was very consuming inside the,
41:48:230Anna Stoppato: inside the system, because on their, opinion, it has to… it had to work, continuously, so during the operation of the reactor, it was possible. It needed to be always, in operation. We studied a lot in the literature, and we found that it is possible,
42:08:40Anna Stoppato: to have an intermittent mixing, only 5 seconds over a minute. And again, this was able to reduce a lot the consumption. And as I will show you later in this
42:23:350Anna Stoppato: Before that, going on, sorry.
42:26:280Anna Stoppato: I have… I need this one.
42:30:570Anna Stoppato: Okay.
42:33:150Anna Stoppato: Okay, these are the things that I already showed you. Before going on, a last thing that we did was the,
42:42:720Anna Stoppato: We did the… again, it is, energetic, there are many energetic aspects. We did some, trials using,
42:55:730Anna Stoppato: metahydride, technology for the… for the… for the storage. This is the tank. These, of course, these are inside. This is all the…
43:07:480Anna Stoppato: test, but these are the… the element of the power of a metal hydrate. You can see this power, but they are not very small. And this is the… our, experimental part.
43:20:400Anna Stoppato: And here you can find everything, what I saw, want to show to you, that this was the cure provided by the manufacturer that was used initially
43:31:500Anna Stoppato: followed the analysis, but with our analysis, we found this curve, so with the disease for the discharge, so it was most rapid than, what,
43:45:540Anna Stoppato: expected using the data coming from the manufacturer. Of course, it is possible that, we didn't do it in the perfect way, but probably, one of the main problems was related to temporator, so the…
44:02:70Anna Stoppato: The… in this charging phase, we didn't, change the… we didn't,
44:08:650Anna Stoppato: use water, or to… we didn't use any thermal source in order to maintain the temperature, and probably this is the reason why our discharge was most rapid… more rapid than expected. This is very important because, of course, if we need to simulate
44:28:200Anna Stoppato: To simulate and then use…
44:30:580Anna Stoppato: this metal hydride, we need to be sure about the discharge. Of course, we opened the valve, we didn't do anything else at present, and okay, if you want, here you can find also the reaction. Note that also for this, of course, this is a commercial one, so we were not able to do
44:53:770Anna Stoppato: To open it, to do anything else. But one idea, again, one problem, again, is to understand if
45:01:310Anna Stoppato: this kind of storage is able to store also dirty metons, dirty hydrogen. We use only with pure hydrogen, but if our goal is the possibility to use dirt, dirty hydrogen, we must be sure that this kind of
45:19:990Anna Stoppato: element is able to… to do this. Of course, as you have seen, this kind of storage is able to work at lower pressure than with the traditional storage, so of course, this gives us
45:35:140Anna Stoppato: many advantages in terms of energy consumption. Dan, what I want to show you, even if I have some other slides related to this, is this one. What did we analyzed?
45:51:460Anna Stoppato: that if we use the SOFC, so the solid oxide fuel cell, we produce 9 points…
46:04:00Anna Stoppato: 2 kilowatt hour per day.
46:07:130Anna Stoppato: of… Electricity.
46:10:450Anna Stoppato: And we consume 9.3 kilowatt hour day.
46:16:100Anna Stoppato: If we use the PEM, we produce 8.4, a little lower, but we consume more.
46:24:570Anna Stoppato: You can say to AMI, so it is not convenient. This is only related to hydrogen.
46:32:280Anna Stoppato: If we add the increase of the production of meat from the anaerobic digestion, the…
46:42:710Anna Stoppato: total, the total, system is positive. Not also another important thing that, of course, and I think that this is very important, to have in mind that we are using a waste.
47:00:320Anna Stoppato: That must be treated, okay? So, yes, of course, we are consuming electricity… energy better. We are producing energy, and note that the energy that we consume is mainly electricity, but
47:16:340Anna Stoppato: We have also a small consumption of thermal energy, and we can use… we can also
47:22:140Anna Stoppato: This can be the next step, for example, we can try to use waste to recover… to recover waste energy, for example, for the solid oxide fuel cell itself, or from other processes that are present in the mood utility.
47:39:960Anna Stoppato: But, okay, it is not a very, very good result, but it is considered sufficiently
47:50:170Anna Stoppato: positive, since, as I told you, we are using a waste that, without this process, in any case, should be, should be treated, okay?
48:05:50Anna Stoppato: Note that a part of this consumption is also consumption in the traditional anaerobic digestion, so…
48:13:770Anna Stoppato: Generally speaking, we are doing something which is positive. These are…
48:18:540Anna Stoppato: Different data, these are… I already showed you this.
48:22:180Anna Stoppato: I don't know why I repeat it many times. Okay, this is what is what I already showed you. The last part, again, I don't know, I don't go into the details, but the last part, which was asked to us was the lifecycle assessment. Of course, these are, of course, the results
48:41:860Anna Stoppato: presented in a very simplified way. But again, this is important because it is clear that we are speaking only about energy. We spoke only about energy, but we have to take into consideration also other aspects. One of them is the
48:59:100Anna Stoppato: carbon footprint, but for example, also using the use of water.
49:05:580Anna Stoppato: And the use of water, for example, becomes most important, very important, if we have to arrive to very pure hydrogen, while the consumption is lower.
49:16:510Anna Stoppato: Dan,
49:20:420Anna Stoppato: If we use the solid oxide fuel cell. Of course, these are very general results, but we can go into the details. We have all the details of this analysis. Okay, so these are something more, so these are the conclusions. I forgot to do.
49:37:810Anna Stoppato: Okay, so this is the first step. Now I present very quickly a different one, which is a little bit different.
49:45:310Anna Stoppato: Then we have another one which is more similar, but since I have more slides, it is in a different presentation. This is, again, only to show you, this is a project which will be start… will start in June, probably at the end of June, but,
50:03:280Anna Stoppato: Again, it is financial by the European Union, and okay, the name is Coherent. It is Community Hydrogen Emission Trading and Renewable Energy for Inclusive Net Zero Transition. I don't have…
50:19:530Anna Stoppato: I don't have any result to show you, but, again, only to show you, this was, financialed, founded by the European Union, and this means that, even if, I know we have, again, we have, we still have some
50:37:510Anna Stoppato: Concernsao… Related to hydrogen, but it is clear that the idea
50:43:490Anna Stoppato: at present is that of promote the use of hydrogen, and to wait to give the final,
50:52:210Anna Stoppato: conclusions later. So, for example, okay, you can see that, again, we are mainly involved in the,
50:59:210Anna Stoppato: Models of multi-energy, modular models of the, of the…
51:07:230Anna Stoppato: of the system. But you can see that, for example, you wanna… idea is, again, to validate the next generation of carbon technologies.
51:18:70Anna Stoppato: And so, okay, it is not written in the title, but we, we also put this, the production of hydrogen from, sludges and from waste, through… and then, again, you can see the inclusive policies,
51:36:100Anna Stoppato: And, this is another important point, and also the first, so try to, with…
51:43:130Anna Stoppato: We told, and you told a lot about the problems, the economic problems related to hydrogen, the lack of the infrastructure, and so on. The European Union is moving in order to remove these problems.
51:56:950Anna Stoppato: Because the idea is that hydrogen can be really one solution, so…
52:02:100Anna Stoppato: I don't know, Nastir, but what I can… what I will say about this project, but this project, note that in this case, the…
52:12:470Anna Stoppato: while the previous project was mainly based on Veneto, because they were involved with Veritas, Spado, and Venezia, this is a European project which involves also many companies.
52:26:790Anna Stoppato: And university, but again, also many companies, not only a research center.
52:33:230Anna Stoppato: not only in Europe, but also in Australia, New Zealand, in Singapore, in Sri Lanka.
52:43:70Anna Stoppato: the United Kingdom, obviously it is in Europe, even if not in the European Union.
52:48:900Anna Stoppato: So again, we… it is clear that,
52:55:170Anna Stoppato: the solution is not ready. But we have many solutions, but no one of them is really,
53:05:110Anna Stoppato: winning now with respect to solution using different kind of fuel or different kind of energy vector, but it is clear that the idea is that we
53:18:880Anna Stoppato: We need to… to push on this, because probably…
53:23:500Anna Stoppato: So the idea is… the hope is that the winning solution can be found.
53:29:790Anna Stoppato: I hope next year you can present you also an additional project, but since at present it is not founded, I don't want to…
53:41:560Anna Stoppato: To say something?
53:43:270Anna Stoppato: Before having the red, they're a sponsor.
53:47:730Anna Stoppato: Now I want to show you the last slide, sorry, shortly therea classes, because I can't…
53:54:790Anna Stoppato: So, update now for both the projects, to see if there's a convenience… Okay.
54:06:760Anna Stoppato: Okay, so the… for the first project, mmm…
54:15:140Anna Stoppato: Not exactly. So, a very varied draft was done only to… to see that, really, yes, there is an additional production of electricity, but at present,
54:29:270Anna Stoppato: the course, okay, it, but, so…
54:34:750Anna Stoppato: Probably, at present, it is not convenient from the economic point of view, but there is not a large difference, because the large part is related to the treatment of,
54:46:810Anna Stoppato: of Wastis, which is a little more,
54:50:820Anna Stoppato: expensive than the traditional one, but not very, very more expensive. So, probably, the problem can be the use of fuel cells, the storage, the purification.
55:02:800Anna Stoppato: But the idea is that it is possible that the cost of all this part can be reduced. And the second,
55:11:590Anna Stoppato: At present, there is the hope of the benefits coming, for example, from the reduction of the carbon dioxide emissions.
55:20:480Anna Stoppato: The second project, which will start as 4 years of land, so…
55:26:700Anna Stoppato: As also this aspect that should be taken into consideration, but note that, again, one of the main points is also that of to find out the policy, the regulation, the policy, and so on.
55:41:900Anna Stoppato: can help.
55:44:560Anna Stoppato: the diffusion of hydrogen. So the idea is that probably in four years, it is not convenient with respect to other technology, but we… we think this is the idea that Putin
55:55:610Anna Stoppato: possible incentives, which are based, for example, on the reduction, as I told you, of carbon dioxide emission and so on, we can make it
56:08:130Anna Stoppato: Convenient, or… With the same price, so…
56:12:600Anna Stoppato: can be a possible solution. So.
56:16:650Anna Stoppato: And, so this is the goal of the second. There is a… also this part to find a…
56:22:790Anna Stoppato: Of course, it is clear that if we found that we have to give too many mandates is not possible, but the idea is that only with very small incentives, it can become…
56:33:980Anna Stoppato: Convenient.
56:38:230Anna Stoppato: Could be. Could be. Yeah.
56:42:340Anna Stoppato: Of course, note that, again, there is… but you already also know these things. The problem is also related to the infrastructure. There are not infrastructure, so it is clear that
56:54:180Anna Stoppato: Unless they are not 3D, the costs become very, very high, because… We have to take… exactly.
57:03:160Anna Stoppato: So, for example, some incentives can be done in terms of helping by building the infrastructure.
57:10:820Anna Stoppato: After the infrastructure ready, it's clear that for a new project, if the infrastructure is already existing, everything changes.
57:21:480Anna Stoppato: On the economic point of view.
57:23:980Anna Stoppato: No, no, okay.
57:34:700Anna Stoppato: No, no, okay. So now this is, generally speaking, not only for this project, but usually when you apply for a project, for a COLA, you…
57:46:960Anna Stoppato: There is a budget.
57:48:610Anna Stoppato: And, so you say, I will do this, this, and this, and this is my budget.
57:54:480Anna Stoppato: And they can say, okay, or they can say, okay, no, the project is good, but we discussed, we can discuss about the budget.
58:05:290Anna Stoppato: So, when you sign, you know which is the budget, and you have to… To respect.
58:15:600Anna Stoppato: But now, are you speaking of the economic analysis of the project itself, or of the solution?
58:25:130Anna Stoppato: Because the project is a project… okay, the project… okay. Usually, okay, the project itself, but our… we are speaking about the activity of the project, okay?
58:36:650Anna Stoppato: You need to… to do.
58:39:350Anna Stoppato: The economic analysis, because they give you the money that you asked for.
58:43:300Anna Stoppato: Okay, and they give you, and they control that, you do what you…
58:48:660Anna Stoppato: So, you can change something. It is clear that during a project, it is possible that something changes, and so on, so you can ask for a remodel, not on the overall budget, but you can say, okay, I said that I spent this money to go and
59:03:190Anna Stoppato: for a… to go for a conference, I need to buy something. This is possible.
59:12:120Anna Stoppato: There is, some limits. Okay, but this is for the project itself.
59:18:440Anna Stoppato: Now, if you say that M…
59:22:710Anna Stoppato: If you have to demonstrate that what are… what you are studying is economically sustainable,
59:32:790Anna Stoppato: Usually, yes, but it depends on which kind of protocol you're applying for, because as I show you, there are different grades of range.
59:43:290Anna Stoppato: So, if you apply for the so-called basic research, basic… so, you applied for something which is really very new, you don't need to demonstrate that it is sustainable.
59:56:580Anna Stoppato: Of course, it is clear that…
59:58:890Anna Stoppato: But you don't need to demonstrate that it is commercially Can become commercial solutions.
00:07:800Anna Stoppato: Usually, for this kind of project, the budget is lower.
00:12:730Anna Stoppato: If you apply, for example, as I told you.
00:16:360Anna Stoppato: for the project, the Motzen, we applied, we said that we will arrive at the readiness 7.
00:23:460Anna Stoppato: 7th, nos, Rayas is, niner.
00:28:380Anna Stoppato: Okay, so we said we think that we can arrive to a size which is close to the commercial one. We can build a pilot plant. You know that in the pilot plant, usually.
00:41:280Anna Stoppato: We… the… the goal of a pylon plant is not that, to have, again,
00:50:10Anna Stoppato: Okay, because in the pilot plant, they also do… it is in the… Experimento!
00:57:870Anna Stoppato: with a size which is close to the real one, but it is for the experimenter. A prototype usually is smaller, can be in the lab, so…
01:10:30Anna Stoppato: So usually they ask you, so, the highest, the level of readiness that you declare at the end of the project. The most important is that you do also the economic analysis related to your…
01:24:470Anna Stoppato: Solution yoga.
01:27:290Anna Stoppato: So for this project, we only demonstrate that it is feasible, that it is scalable.
01:34:370Anna Stoppato: We didn't go into the details of the economic analysis.
01:39:600Anna Stoppato: Thank you for the ERM,
01:42:800Anna Stoppato: A little bit. Okay, the budget depends on many different things, because it depends on who is giving you the money, which is the call, how many projects are financial, and so on, but generally speaking.
02:00:380Anna Stoppato: They know that when you need to build something.
02:04:840Anna Stoppato: when you work in a lab, you need less money than when you need to build a large plant, so usually they give you
02:12:780Anna Stoppato: more money.
02:14:350Anna Stoppato: Yes. But, you have to arrive, so…
02:19:100Anna Stoppato: You have a really to build something that works.
02:23:350Anna Stoppato: Okay, then, nope.
02:27:200Anna Stoppato: It is not a general rule, because, of course, if you use, European, fines…
02:34:730Anna Stoppato: But also the European, there are different kind of calls, or you can use national, or you can use regional.
02:43:480Anna Stoppato: The previous one was Italian.
02:51:390Anna Stoppato: First one was Italian, the Ministry of,
02:57:100Anna Stoppato: I don't remember exactly. Now it is, I think, ecological transition, but when we were founded, it changed three times… two times the name from the beginning to the end.
03:09:990Anna Stoppato: Note that some… Projects require a co-founder.
03:17:950Anna Stoppato: So, for example, especially when we are at the highest value, or readiness.
03:25:350Anna Stoppato: You need to have some companies involved.
03:29:460Anna Stoppato: It is better if they are large companies, but…
03:33:690Anna Stoppato: ES, and they have to put an A.
03:36:870Anna Stoppato: So the companies usually are never financed Quite never founded 100%.
03:45:540Anna Stoppato: So, depending, for example, Europe gave them 60% of the money, but they have to put the other 40%.
03:54:860Anna Stoppato: So it means that they pay the salary of people working on this, they have to…
04:02:90Anna Stoppato: Buys something with their own money.
04:06:570Anna Stoppato: Of course, this is… If a company is,
04:11:100Anna Stoppato: Give my name, it means that…
04:13:280Anna Stoppato: They are sure. What are they doing, okay?
04:17:890Anna Stoppato: Of course, university cannot put money, because… Yes, university is not money.
04:26:780Anna Stoppato: We didn't have money to spend for anything else than, yes.
04:34:710Anna Stoppato: But research, so that we cannot…
04:39:680Anna Stoppato: Not a lot, so we have the money which are given by the project, so we can… the project gives us the money, and we can buy things with this money.
04:49:830Anna Stoppato: with exception of this, the amount of money is very, very limited. But in any case, also for regulation university, but generally in Italy, in Europe, not only in Italy.
05:01:180Anna Stoppato: University is not money.
05:03:720Anna Stoppato: We cannot pay… Brooklyn.
05:09:700Anna Stoppato: Look at us.
05:10:970Anna Stoppato: But, okay, but just… I did this…
05:14:670Anna Stoppato: In any case, we are using public money.
05:19:510Anna Stoppato: So, if we take public mining and use them for a project, more or less is the same.
05:26:230Anna Stoppato: Okay.
05:27:800Anna Stoppato: But in any case, this is,
05:31:390Anna Stoppato: Companies, of course, there are projects where there are…
05:38:570Anna Stoppato: 5, 4, 5, 4, 10 millions euros.
05:43:500Anna Stoppato: Not this one, of course, but our company works.
05:47:330Anna Stoppato: These are the budgets.
05:49:420Anna Stoppato: Other guys, but in any case, 1 million is…
05:54:180Anna Stoppato: Okay, so now, I want to present you, but again, this is very, very quickly, because it is not specifically, or not completely related to hydrogen, but only to show you. Really, there are two projects. The first one…
06:09:20Anna Stoppato: is this one, which was called Purple V, and was financial by the European Special Agency, Space Agency.
06:18:550Anna Stoppato: And this is the second one, which is,
06:23:630Anna Stoppato: financiered by the Italian, Space Agency, with topics which are very similar, or better. This is the most,
06:34:90Anna Stoppato: This is looking at pictures. Nope.
06:41:290Anna Stoppato: go to the… this one. This, this thing, which is, Angela?
06:48:290Anna Stoppato: But these red are bacterias.
06:51:360Anna Stoppato: red bacterias, so the color is related to them. At the beginning, the gel is transparent, then they put… so this is, again, biological. They put these red bacterias, so the reddest is the column, the most bacterias. What is the,
07:10:930Anna Stoppato: operation of this bacteria. They eat… the,
07:18:990Anna Stoppato: The organic matter, again, we are speaking about oases.
07:23:980Anna Stoppato: And they transform it into hydrogen.
07:27:110Anna Stoppato: Okay? And, while this is a gel, it is a gel, but it is a solid, in order to avoid that. So, the idea is that. This is this, pipe.
07:38:760Anna Stoppato: which is full, but not completely full of this gel, the bacterias are here. Then, from the bottom, enter water, which is rich of
07:50:340Anna Stoppato: Races, organic matter.
07:53:860Anna Stoppato: And then it moves very, very slowly.
07:57:200Anna Stoppato: And, and then the water exit somewhere. Now, here it is not clear, but in other pictures it's clear. Exit more or less here.
08:07:300Anna Stoppato: Okay, this gel takes the bacteria inside, because otherwise the water takes also the bacteria.
08:17:920Anna Stoppato: And this works with light, of course, so you can see, in this specific case, this pipe has the light inside.
08:29:859Anna Stoppato: It is with the hula, with the…
08:33:120Anna Stoppato: side, but there are… there is also this solution where the light is, now I show you. But in any case, what was, again, our, sorry, which was the idea, and how… where…
08:45:899Anna Stoppato: This, can be used, of course, everywhere, but why was it financialed by the… Space agencies.
08:56:140Anna Stoppato: Because the idea is to use this in order to produce hydrogen. This was in the space.
09:04:80Anna Stoppato: While in this other, on the moon.
09:08:180Anna Stoppato: Okay? This was a simplified solution, simplified, only with this, the production of hydrogen. So again, we used the wastes of the people on the…
09:22:29Anna Stoppato: In the space?
09:24:140Anna Stoppato: And
09:26:40Anna Stoppato: Of course, this is very small, the idea is to have a large, and to use this to produce hydrogen, which can be used as fuel. In this, BioMoon, it is, again, on the… but it is on the moon… on the moon, not in the space.
09:43:970Anna Stoppato: why it is a little more complex, because they have different columns. One of them, these are microalgae, so to produce ore food. Again, they eat organic matter to produce ore…
09:58:750Anna Stoppato: biomass, or… Hmm… Edible.
10:03:150Anna Stoppato: to food there.
10:05:540Anna Stoppato: And then they have also another one where they produce meat and
10:10:620Anna Stoppato: Okay, so absorb CO2, but in any case, again, how our role… and you can see here, because if you go, this is the…
10:20:960Anna Stoppato: in Venice, they built this microlife space lab, where I do the experimental of this, and this is… so this is the Purple Bee project.
10:34:00Anna Stoppato: Okay, which was, again, our, our role, and again, which can be here, where there are three different productions, but one of them is, again, the production of hydrogen. Our works was…
10:50:360Anna Stoppato: mainly related to the energy. Again, the energy, because, of course, we have to move the water, we have to collect, we have to collect the gas, to separate the gas from other elements, and so on. So this was our first,
11:07:180Anna Stoppato: analysis also. We have to maintain the temperature, so we have… we, again, heated them
11:14:220Anna Stoppato: Thermal analysis of the system.
11:17:290Anna Stoppato: And the last…
11:19:120Anna Stoppato: And it was not very, very successful, but in any case, was to analyze how this hydrogen moves inside this
11:28:620Anna Stoppato: Because the hydrogen is produced inside this gel.
11:32:360Anna Stoppato: Oh, and then we have to collect it.
11:35:590Anna Stoppato: how does it move inside the gel and outside the space? So, as I told you, there is the pipe, there is the gel inside, and the space, the free space between the gel and the pipe is very, very thin.
11:52:400Anna Stoppato: And so we did the CFD analysis.
11:57:50Anna Stoppato: Sorry, I hope that I'm going in the right direction.
12:01:980Anna Stoppato: And, now…
12:04:340Anna Stoppato: Okay, so only to show these seams, but this is a slice of the pipe. The white part is what the other was…
12:17:120Anna Stoppato: It was blue… was red, because here we are analyzing the flow of water, so the water is not inside the purple.
12:24:690Anna Stoppato: And so this is the field of velocity, because we needed to understand if we were able to
12:32:170Anna Stoppato: Exit here with the water, and here with the hydrogen.
12:36:890Anna Stoppato: And so, this was the thermodynamic, these are more details. This is the static pressure field, and here it is not very clear, but perhaps you can see some small difference, because which was the problem, but I'm not sure about this. I don't know.
12:58:20Anna Stoppato: It is, yes, sorry, I don't know, it's better. The colors are,
13:04:540Anna Stoppato: There is a different scale.
13:07:350Anna Stoppato: What we analyze is the effect of gravity on the floor, because,
13:15:800Anna Stoppato: On the Earth, we know that every… the hydrogen, the bubbles of hydrogen goes to the top due to the gravity, so we can collect them at… here. Now, it is not complete, but here.
13:28:470Anna Stoppato: But in the space where there is not gravity, where are they going? And really, with the…
13:37:10Anna Stoppato: So now there are some… So, they are not very clear, but really speaking.
13:47:910Anna Stoppato: On the space, it is very difficult to collect them, so the shape that on the Earth is working on the space is not working. On the Moon, of course, the problem is not so important, so…
14:01:470Anna Stoppato: The gravity is different, but there is a gravity. So perhaps only with small changes in the… in the shape, we can collect the hydrogen, while in the…
14:14:840Anna Stoppato: outside the gravity field, so in the space, probably this will be problems. But in any case, only to show you that there is the space for energy engineers also in these parts.
14:29:380Anna Stoppato: And, okay, so, the…
14:32:860Anna Stoppato: The project for the European Special Agency was concluded, while the other one with the Italian is going, I don't know.
14:42:240Anna Stoppato: But,
14:44:320Anna Stoppato: Now, again, we work at the last part of the project, because we need to have the results of our colleagues in order to analyze.
14:53:330Anna Stoppato: In this case, we are also… also, Jesus is involved, but in this first project, only the department in the second, you know that Jesus is the center for space.
15:05:670Anna Stoppato: Of our university. And, okay, so these are different pictures.
15:11:100Anna Stoppato: Without glasses on, so these are the velocity…
15:17:380Anna Stoppato: It's okay, I don't remind, this is, sorry, this is, what is inside, no, it is here, sorry.
15:27:240Anna Stoppato: with different… we tried with different shapes. We tried to understand if we were able to… Make everyone…
15:38:220Anna Stoppato: One street easier than the other one, but on this space, we were not able to find this.
15:44:830Anna Stoppato: So these were the same. And the last one, because again,
15:50:380Anna Stoppato: We know that, you, that, so…
15:55:310Anna Stoppato: We are far from commercialization, but you know that in Italy, but not only in Italy, a part of the PNRR funds were given to build some hydrogen valley, and one of them is in Benezia.
16:11:820Anna Stoppato: And so they sorrow.
16:14:430Anna Stoppato: 18 million euros were given, in order to produce at least 750 ton of hydrogen.
16:25:880Anna Stoppato: for each year, and with the production of electricity at least 5 megawatts. Of course, they are in the first steps. There are many, possible,
16:39:960Anna Stoppato: opportunity, not only the biohydrogen that I show you, also, of course, using other traditional electric, traditional utilizers of other product processes, but, again.
16:55:20Anna Stoppato: And why I showed you this? Because, of course, when there are…
17:01:880Anna Stoppato: This amount of money for a specific reason. Venezia, it means, of course, Marguerra, Posto Marguera in that area.
17:09:900Anna Stoppato: It is clear that a lot of industries
17:12:510Anna Stoppato: in this area are involved in. So.
17:15:800Anna Stoppato: Many industries have money in order to
17:19:460Anna Stoppato: move their production to something that can be used by the hydrogen chain, and as we told before, this helps to decrease the prices, so now they need this million of euro given by Europe. But it is possible that
17:36:280Anna Stoppato: the… Configuration of the companies, of the industries in that area will change.
17:44:290Anna Stoppato: A little bit, but this small change can help also other industries to enter inside the chain without important additional costs, and that, really, we have an economy based on hydrogen.
17:59:530Anna Stoppato: Of course.
18:00:690Anna Stoppato: We are not,
18:04:220Anna Stoppato: arrived to any final conclusion, but it is clear that we are… we are moving. Of course, there are many problems, and it is clear this is… the hydrogen is not…
18:16:890Anna Stoppato: The only solution, although there are many other solutions for the decarbonization, In my opinion, as…
18:26:230Anna Stoppato: Hydrogen will bring out today.
18:28:350Anna Stoppato: most important solution, the more spread, but for some pos… for some specific application, can be interested. Next lesson, you will see that FinCantieri, which is not a small company, which is very large, with
18:44:220Anna Stoppato: Very large, number of ships that are producers, very large every year.
18:51:840Anna Stoppato: They are moving on hydrogen, and so they will explain for which kind of ships, and…
18:59:410Anna Stoppato: I hope that they are also involved inside some…
19:03:800Anna Stoppato: group of industries which are moving on this, and they will explain why, when they think that hydrogen can be used. But in any case, they already started. They are not in the first steps, of course.
19:19:770Anna Stoppato: Not that they have not arrived to a final solution, but they started some years ago, and they are continuing… they are continuing working on this.
19:35:300Anna Stoppato: For the ships,
19:37:340Anna Stoppato: Okay, now they will explain better, but, so, I think that they have different solutions, so complete hydrogen, but mainly
19:48:270Anna Stoppato: hybrid solution, hybrid solution?
19:52:780Anna Stoppato: As a fuel, main or not, depends.
19:57:350Anna Stoppato: I think they will explain us better that, for example.
20:03:260Anna Stoppato: They… they can use hydrogen when they are close to the shore, for example.
20:12:940Anna Stoppato: So, when there are clothes, They use hydrogen, where they are…
20:19:80Anna Stoppato: In C, they use something else, huh?
20:23:100Anna Stoppato: Or they continuous to work with the… Diesel?
20:27:820Anna Stoppato: But when they arrive closer.
20:30:590Anna Stoppato: They will… they will explain. Of course, again, it also depends on… they will say everything. So, I think that hydrogen will be the main fuel for smaller ships. For example, it can be convenient for ships which have only small,
20:48:380Anna Stoppato: distances solely, in Italian tragedi.
20:54:270Anna Stoppato: So they move from here to here. Every day they arrive… they… every day, they come back to their initial port, where they found… can find nitrogen.
21:09:320Anna Stoppato: So… So, for shapes that have, long, Navigation in the ocean.
21:18:680Anna Stoppato: Hydrogen cannot be used as… they are only the main fuel. Yeah, there are problems…
21:28:410Anna Stoppato: there is problem also the storage. The storage, safety, and so on, while if they have only short, so…
21:37:630Anna Stoppato: The problem is, in that case, they can every day to refuel.
21:45:420Anna Stoppato: They… so, because they are in the port, and because they… in the port where they are, they are sure to find hydrogen.
21:53:870Anna Stoppato: While for others, if they move from one country to another to another, and also sometimes with different, parts, because depending on what they are…
22:03:830Anna Stoppato: Transporting, this becomes more difficult.
22:07:850Anna Stoppato: So it is for smaller…
22:11:520Anna Stoppato: There are many ships, so… from the island, which are close to the shore, so…
22:17:390Anna Stoppato: The infrastructure? Exactly, but if the infrastructure can be put in one port and only there, this is possible.
22:31:150Anna Stoppato: Note that now there are many studies for the production of hydrogen, for example, by offshore wind.
22:42:20Anna Stoppato: Of course, offshore means, not close to the shore, but they are not in the middle of the ocean.
22:49:850Anna Stoppato: the offshore wind. So, for example, they can have an infrastructure for… from offshore to the port.
22:58:990Anna Stoppato: And then hydrogen is… is, stored.
23:05:40Anna Stoppato: So this can be an infrastructure. They are, studying a lot, because the…
23:11:170Anna Stoppato: In any case, when the wind turbines are far, far from the shore, they need that from the coast, they need to transport the electricity.
23:19:530Anna Stoppato: So there are some studies to understand if it is better to transport electricity or directly convert, Niaries.
23:27:720Anna Stoppato: In the sea, Yeah, electricity into hydrogen, and then transport hydrogen.
23:35:300Anna Stoppato: There are, again, many studies, Probably, it will depend on…
23:42:270Anna Stoppato: And it depends on the boundary conditions, but this can be a good solution also for ships, but the ships must arrive every day there.
23:53:400Anna Stoppato: In order that there, it found… it finds the hydrogen.
23:59:120Anna Stoppato: But, there are many studies on ships, because, okay, they need, large… okay.
24:08:770Anna Stoppato: In large ships, there is also the space for the storage. Not for the storage for long,
24:16:200Anna Stoppato: Distances, but, for example, to move the last kilometers, the last miles to arrive.
24:23:830Anna Stoppato: But he will explain, because his works… his work is only about hydrogen. Now he's the coordinator, the people who come here, Paolo Guglia, he's the…
24:37:370Anna Stoppato: coordinator of all the activities related to hydrogen of FinCantieri, but also, it is the head of a… of an association of different companies working on hydrogen, so…
24:53:360Anna Stoppato: He's, for sure, is updated related to the use of hydrogen.
24:58:600Anna Stoppato: And also to the problems. But as present, they are continuing, so they think that it is worth continuing working on this.
25:09:220Anna Stoppato: Yes.
25:18:770Anna Stoppato: Water?
25:20:40Anna Stoppato: how bacteria, can be reached by water, they have accomplished in each other.
25:27:820Anna Stoppato: Because,
25:31:710Anna Stoppato: The infusion, exactly. Because it, and, the same is not very easy, but we do… I didn't have the picture, probably there is, hidden,
25:45:120Anna Stoppato: very, very, very slowly, but water can enter. It is a… yes, it is a gel, and this is another problem, because,
25:54:400Anna Stoppato: the mechanical properties of this gel are not custom, so if, after a period of operation at present, it becomes more,
26:09:360Anna Stoppato: Cannot say fragile, but it's brack.
26:14:00Anna Stoppato: But this is the idea.
26:15:940Anna Stoppato: And it works. The problem is that, we…
26:20:250Anna Stoppato: And again, this is in the…
26:23:140Anna Stoppato: At the beginning of the readiness level, is for a long time, so it works, but if we have to go to the space, we cannot think that every week someone goes and changes.
26:37:260Anna Stoppato: This can be the problem.
26:39:220Anna Stoppato: But it is considered,
26:42:640Anna Stoppato: sufficient… so they are working not only… so this, in any case, what I want to say to you, that,
26:51:490Anna Stoppato: the Italian, in this case, sorry, this was based on the European, but the second project, the Italian, they are working on this, not only with this project. They founded some projects working on the possibility to produce hydrogen.
27:09:360Anna Stoppato: In different ways.
27:12:100Anna Stoppato: And then, at present, since they need… they consider it not so…
27:17:950Anna Stoppato: We consider that if the technology is… no, the technology… the idea is working, they can work on the technology to maintain this,
27:28:800Anna Stoppato: gel with the sufficient properties, but in any case, the water enters. Of course, it needs time, so also in the external part, so what we need is that
27:42:40Anna Stoppato: Not the water, but the nutrient can enter.
27:46:20Anna Stoppato: Yeah.
27:49:350Anna Stoppato: Exactly, exactly. But, it, they work. I don't know if also the bacteria class, or…
27:58:740Anna Stoppato: In which way the bacteria themselves works inside the…
28:03:640Anna Stoppato: It is not clear. We know that they work, we don't have the model of the bacteria and the life of the bacteria.
28:11:770Anna Stoppato: But it works.
28:14:300Anna Stoppato: You are too loud.
28:19:790Anna Stoppato: It leads… It, it needs,
28:28:870Anna Stoppato: it needs to be… okay, or better. It works at, ambient…
28:36:00Anna Stoppato: So, it depends on the temperature. If the outside we have, for example, now…
28:44:210Anna Stoppato: the investment. So, generally speaking, it needs a little bit of heat.
28:50:210Anna Stoppato: But the heat ex… but not a lot, so the heat exchange at this temperature is enough.
28:56:490Anna Stoppato: If it is colder.
28:59:70Anna Stoppato: But I don't think the process itself, but they are the bacteria that need to be… A dyed temperature.
29:07:60Anna Stoppato: No, not high temperature, sorry. This ambient temperature. If it is very cold, they need to be heated.
29:17:600Anna Stoppato: performances are lower. Yeah, I don't think… I think that, at low temperatures, but not, not very low, low.
29:26:250Anna Stoppato: For example, at 10, they stop.
29:29:110Anna Stoppato: They don't die, but they… Stop the process.
29:34:880Anna Stoppato: Then, if you eat them again, they start again.
29:38:650Anna Stoppato: You know that the bacteria can, be…
29:43:40Anna Stoppato: Has died, but, or so after.
29:47:40Anna Stoppato: thousands of years, start again.
29:51:330Anna Stoppato: They didn't try this kind of bacteria. Yeah.
29:56:300Anna Stoppato: But they are… They don't,
30:01:450Anna Stoppato: They… they don't die, and they eat races without, giving other problems.
30:10:840Anna Stoppato: They are well-known bacteria.
30:13:200Anna Stoppato: for, for this kind of use.
30:17:290Anna Stoppato: Of course, the problem is that if we have to put them on the space, we need to…
30:26:100Anna Stoppato: To find out how to… To maintain them inside the reactor, and…
30:33:40Anna Stoppato: But this is only to say, also in this space, hydrogen
30:37:790Anna Stoppato: Or better. Hydrogen was always considered a possible fuel for their rapid movements, so… but it is clear that now they are looking on how to produce, to store, and so on it, and this can be a possible solution.
30:52:800Anna Stoppato: Of course, also, they are also starting the production, not on the
30:56:810Anna Stoppato: the space, but also on the moon, with the lateralizers and the PV panels.
31:01:630Anna Stoppato: Of course, the problem of pivot on the Moon is that the day and night have a different duration than the Earth, so the storage must be for the same power, and the energy must be much larger.
31:16:230Anna Stoppato: Because the night is longer.
31:19:620Anna Stoppato: Introspect today.
31:22:690Anna Stoppato: to death.
31:24:150Anna Stoppato: Okay, so, see how I close the recording?
31:28:60Anna Stoppato: I… Sorry, control if someone…