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00:14:720Michele De Carli: Good. So
00:21:522Michele De Carli: start alright. So we we're
00:28:620Michele De Carli: talking about the radar systems. Okay? And
00:40:105Michele De Carli: and we were.
00:42:822Michele De Carli: I, I explained you a little bit the most
00:47:776Michele De Carli: or the classic types. Okay, the the
00:51:520Michele De Carli: the usual types of radiance, mister, which
00:55:280Michele De Carli: present in the market season several times,
01:00:586Michele De Carli: since long time. Okay? And so these are the usual floor
01:06:490Michele De Carli: solutions in, let's say, starting from, let's say, beginning of 2,000. Okay, especially related to the market of retrofit. it was discussed how to reduce the the height of the thickness of the system, because, especially in existing buildings. Since you have the the limit of
01:35:200Michele De Carli: in Italy over 2.7 as
01:40:23Michele De Carli: as net height between the floor finishing material and the ceiling. Okay?
01:51:740Michele De Carli: It was debated how to do that, or how to integrate the radiant floors in existing buildings because of the
02:01:810Michele De Carli: because it
02:03:320Michele De Carli: in the in case of retrofitting. Okay, it was possible. Or you could. If you use the radiance system you could not have this minimum height. Okay? Which was, important is important for
02:22:820Michele De Carli: having the permit to to live and to in general to have the permits of the municipalities. Okay.
02:33:473Michele De Carli: so it was. there was a a
02:41:920Michele De Carli: let's say, a big effort from the companies.
02:46:390Michele De Carli: We're producing the radiance systems to propose thin solutions. Okay? So we have seen that usually we can consider in a in a in a typical building, about 1012,
03:04:810Michele De Carli: about 10 centimeters of thickness. Okay? But if you have a smaller
03:12:330Michele De Carli: thickness, a lower, lower thickness, then how could you do.
03:16:760Michele De Carli: or what could you propose as a commercial radio floor? If you were not able to use 10 cm of, let's say, of of a system
03:30:921Michele De Carli: so in that case it was working in different ways. On one hand on the rate on the insulation system, so trying to reduce a little bit the but still having the insulation.
03:49:830Michele De Carli: This is 1 1
03:53:100Michele De Carli: one direction. This was one direction. Their direct direction was how to, let's say, decrease the thickness of the concrete layer.
04:04:470Michele De Carli: let's say of the layer which is supporting the finishing material. Okay?
04:10:458Michele De Carli: So this is one of the 1st solutions which has been proposed.
04:16:606Michele De Carli: it is based on, let's say on a you can see. In the previous slides, or sorry in the previous lecture we have seen that usually the pipe is above the insulation material.
04:34:250Michele De Carli: In this case you can see that the insulation material is hosting the the the pipe. Okay, so the pipe is inside the insulin. And in this case, of course, if you leave the the pipe in the insulin
04:52:700Michele De Carli: the year.
04:56:350Michele De Carli: you will limit the heat exchange between the pipe and the surrounding, because most of the pipe is
05:05:920Michele De Carli: is exchanging it with the installation, which is, of course, something which is not that useful.
05:15:370Michele De Carli: So for improving or for increasing the
05:21:230Michele De Carli: that can allow. So to improve the thermal conductivity. The heat transfer, let's say, on the pipe
05:28:153Michele De Carli: it was then supposed to, or to use a metal
05:35:480Michele De Carli: Meta sheet. Okay, with an Omega shape.
05:39:978Michele De Carli: Which could be hosted inside.
05:43:20Michele De Carli: or which could be placed in between the instrument and the pipe, so as to diffuse the heat
05:51:120Michele De Carli: through the plate, and avoid or and and allow a better bit exchange between the pipe and what is above the pipe above the pipe. We have the then the structural element. Okay, which is supporting the finishing material. Okay.
06:11:870Michele De Carli: destructor in element, destructor element. Okay, he's can be
06:19:678Michele De Carli: can be can be either a a screen. Okay, in this case, you can use for instance, a self leveling screen. Okay, liquid street.
06:36:762Michele De Carli: Which, of course, then, is becoming hard. Okay? So it's dry, which means 3 cm. So in that case you could work with 2.5 plus one. Okay.
06:55:900Michele De Carli: plus 3 to 6 cm of thickness. You could even have a lower thickness by using dry systems. Okay, like, we see, like
07:11:510Michele De Carli: similar to the Egyptian wall. Okay, so with some, let's say, prefabricated systems are even.
07:25:590Michele De Carli: You can work with the steel sheet. Okay? So you can work with steel sheet with metal steel sheet. Put the 2 layers, one about the other. In this case you could do okay, you could treat it into 1 so that means that practically you have 2.5 plus one plus 0 point 1. So it means 3.7
07:50:260Michele De Carli: 4 cm. Okay, which is really.
07:54:420Michele De Carli: really, really thick. Really, really, thin. Okay, so this is one option.
08:02:407Michele De Carli: Here, you see, the 3 different possibilities. In case of dry materials. Okay?
08:11:145Michele De Carli: Here, you can see, you can use either calcium silicate sheet. Okay? Which is this prefabricated layer or plaster fiber sheet. Okay?
08:23:530Michele De Carli: Which is in these cases they are different in thickness and different in the also the costs. Okay.
08:32:720Michele De Carli: our stitch. Okay? So, which is 2 so one plus 1 side.
08:39:48Michele De Carli: So what do you do? You can see you put 2 different spreadsheet. Okay, one above the other in order to have a good mechanical system.
08:50:40Michele De Carli: Of course, the costs in this case are
08:56:840Michele De Carli: very high. Okay? So the the costs by using this sheet will become
09:05:890Michele De Carli: like normal costs. Okay? So after
09:17:40Michele De Carli: proposing this solution meanwhile. Okay. There was also another possibility, too, which was, also proposed.
09:27:390Michele De Carli: So in order to or, let's say, an alternative. Okay, you have to think about that. These solutions okay are interesting. But this, the cost is quite high because you have sea sheet. Okay, this Omega sea sheet. So they they cost relatively higher than the usual radium floor.
09:46:635Michele De Carli: So in order to have similar costs.
09:51:27Michele De Carli: It was one of the effort was also to
09:56:520Michele De Carli: try to make the the still, let's say, using the the pipe in the software industry. Okay.
10:10:570Michele De Carli: but in prefabricated in prefabricated palace. Okay with the limited pick. Okay? So also, you have to think about that. Meanwhile, also, the concrete producers who could could introduce better are
10:28:970Michele De Carli: more performance. Concrete layers with thicker, thinner materials. Okay? And with this liquid, which can, let's say, enter anywhere in this kind of pattern, plastic, or metal.
10:48:360Michele De Carli: This was the 1st one proposed in the market, also the in this case the costs were extremely high because you can think about about this is also the sheet. Okay.
10:59:351Michele De Carli: this solution is quite cheap. Okay? So you can see that
11:04:52Michele De Carli: these days you can work with 1 1.5
11:08:980Michele De Carli: centimeters as overall thickness. Okay?
11:15:290Michele De Carli: which is extremely small. Of course, in this case you are also reducing the diameter of the pipe. Okay, I told you I don't know if I told you.
11:26:500Michele De Carli: If I already told you it's a it's another. It's again the same info, if not, this is a new info for you. The diameter of the pipes are between, let's say, 15 to 20 as external diameter. Okay.
11:46:340Michele De Carli: so with these solutions. Here you are working with the smaller pipes. Okay, let's say half of the diameter, which is more or less. Let's say 10 maximum. Okay, even even even smaller. Okay,
12:06:650Michele De Carli: so you can see that because you need to reduce the overall.
12:14:90Michele De Carli: And meanwhile, okay. So it was also discussed in retrofit buildings. If you had or not to insulate the system on
12:25:410Michele De Carli: it, is usually recommended to insulate. But actually, the if you are obliged or not. This is
12:35:320Michele De Carli: something which is a gray, okay.
12:38:910Michele De Carli: area. Which can someone say, yes, someone say, No, okay. So let's say it's up to the design.
12:50:90Michele De Carli: So that is why, for instance, one possibility. Okay, one. Let's say a possibility. Easy, quick possibility to
13:00:783Michele De Carli: to work all on existing floors. Okay, so imagine that this is a finishing floor with the finishing material with ties. Okay, you can come with a mill and you can a mill machine. And you can mill the pipes. Okay, the pattern of the pipes. And you can lay down the pipes. Okay on the on the existing floor. And then you put on top
13:24:270Michele De Carli: the new finishing up here. Okay, of course, we. We are not insulating the the, the.
13:33:500Michele De Carli: the types below. Okay.
13:37:00Michele De Carli: but again, this is a possible solution. And in this case you have just to put the exit the in this.
13:48:50Michele De Carli: So these machines are, of course, very well
13:52:743Michele De Carli: designed in order to avoid the dust in the in the building, and so on.
14:00:80Michele De Carli: This is a very interesting solution. For instance, for historical churches, when you have to rearrange the the floor, especially in historical churches, when you.
14:12:940Michele De Carli: you have to really take care. And in this case, for instance, in the Church of the salute in Venice. Okay, that was what that is what has been done. Okay, so they have. Take off the existing floor. They they they
14:31:650Michele De Carli: they they removed the the the lower, the lower floor, they they more. They made more, some I mean some.
14:41:860Michele De Carli: It made some words for having a better
14:45:868Michele De Carli: load the structure or to in order to have a better, let's say, strength with the against the load structures.
14:56:846Michele De Carli: Sorry the structural loads. And they they meet. They put the the pipes and they put on top the the
15:07:970Michele De Carli: we're former our big sister. Now.
15:12:00Michele De Carli: Bibles. Okay? And of course, so this is a possibility.
15:17:290Michele De Carli: Another system which is proposed. I don't really.
15:24:790Michele De Carli: I don't like it, anyway. But anyway, someone proposes, this is for race floor. Okay, so in the ties, when you use the race floor, you could
15:35:580Michele De Carli: put on top of active activity systems. But I don't think it's really
15:40:720Michele De Carli: much used as a as a system.
15:44:134Michele De Carli: Okay, so this is all for the radiant force. Okay, so these are the radiant force. I want to mention just 1 point
15:53:80Michele De Carli: these solutions.
15:56:470Michele De Carli: So
15:58:150Michele De Carli: this solution, or, let's say, the solution with the liquid scree. Okay, they are, since they have a smaller thickness of the concrete layer.
16:10:610Michele De Carli: And commercially they are. They are. Made the
16:18:460Michele De Carli: low inertia solutions. Okay? The usual radiance systems. Okay, with the usual 3. They are named
16:32:260Michele De Carli: higher nature solution. Okay?
16:34:510Michele De Carli: But it's just a commercial main. Okay, okay.
16:44:680Michele De Carli: underfloor heating solution is the most used for residential buildings. But it's not the only solution. Okay. So starting from the, let's say
16:58:720Michele De Carli: so.
17:00:320Michele De Carli: The radium floor was proposed.
17:04:910Michele De Carli: Since the late eighties, beginning of nineties. Okay, at the end of the nineties the the
17:13:500Michele De Carli: in the market. It was proposed the radiance ceiling solution. Which is this one here? Okay.
17:22:757Michele De Carli: What do you need. Well, of course, you need a structural
17:32:20Michele De Carli: you need. The structure usually is a metal brain structure. Okay?
17:38:870Michele De Carli: and you can see that. Usually, you need to post the other technical. Let's say, solutions. Okay, you can see in this case these are the types of the the dots for the air. And these are the inlet for the air. Okay.
18:00:70Michele De Carli: and the
18:03:400Michele De Carli: And of course, usually you, you can also okay, you usually work also on with the electric wiring and the electric stuff on the above the radiance. Okay.
18:19:106Michele De Carli: so the ceiling is a a full ceiling.
18:22:470Michele De Carli: And so usually you place the structure.
18:28:290Michele De Carli: And then you
18:32:160Michele De Carli: you insert, or you you are. You are locking the your panels on the structure. Okay? What? By screens, usually.
18:43:730Michele De Carli: And
18:47:850Michele De Carli: what is the difference between this solution and the radiant floor? Well, basically, these solutions are preferably solutions. Okay? So usually, the radiant floor is made on site, and then you have to build up everything on site
19:06:722Michele De Carli: in this case, usually the radiant systems are a preferative solution, and in this case you can see here the 2 different well, you can have gypsum boards. Okay? So you can have. Usually they are. They are gypsum boards. So they are.
19:28:178Michele De Carli: captain. Okay? So in this case they are.
19:34:560Michele De Carli: you work with a layer of gypsum board. Okay, this year. And you can see there are 2 different possibilities. One is that you have big pipes
19:47:460Michele De Carli: in the in the Egyptian Board, which means that
19:52:791Michele De Carli: the producer is milling the Egyptian war to hostage types.
20:00:570Michele De Carli: Which means that usually this solution okay, usually, the the pipes usually are 6, 8
20:10:690Michele De Carli: as external diameter. Okay? So with the radiant ceiling.
20:15:850Michele De Carli: The diameters of the pipe is even smaller.
20:21:25Michele De Carli: And in this case that means that you need at least 8 10
20:31:990Michele De Carli: loaded by in order to have okay enough
20:37:688Michele De Carli: mechanical resistance. Okay, in order not to break the the the board. Okay.
20:44:490Michele De Carli: where you have where you have milled the the boat right
20:49:887Michele De Carli: so that means that usually these are
20:53:980Michele De Carli: 18. I mean, on average, the usual thickness of the G 2 board is 12 right 12.5
21:03:210Michele De Carli: In this case it means that in this case you need at least 1820 okay? And
21:14:550Michele De Carli: I want to remind you that you, you have to put them on top. Okay? So that means that if you use a thicker solution.
21:24:370Michele De Carli: it means that it is also happier. Right? If you're using a
21:30:560Michele De Carli: 12, sorry 18 instead of 12 of gypsy board, it means that the the
21:41:20Michele De Carli: the panelist weight is 50% greater than the other. Okay?
21:47:330Michele De Carli: And it's not the problem from the structure as well for the for the.
21:52:810Michele De Carli: So the letter sheet, the sector. Okay. But it is less comfortable. Okay, to to put it all done.
22:01:521Michele De Carli: The second point is that the
22:05:270Michele De Carli: in this case, you can see we can see we have the same solution that what we have seen before, they one of the 1st
22:14:560Michele De Carli: proposals that we had for the floor. Okay, so the system is similar.
22:19:147Michele De Carli: So in this case, if you don't mill the board.
22:23:30Michele De Carli: you are passing the type in the in in the installation.
22:30:860Michele De Carli: But of course, in this case, you have to put a metal sheet. Okay again. And Omega, as we have seen before, in order to diffuse the heat. Okay, in the on the, on the kitchen there.
22:45:669Michele De Carli: So in this case you can use a regular normal Egyptian board over 12 and
22:55:870Michele De Carli: but the cost is relatively higher, because
22:59:480Michele De Carli: again, you know the sheet, and it's a little bit more complicated. Okay, so this is a cheaper solution than this.
23:06:270Michele De Carli: This is performing a little bit better.
23:08:980Michele De Carli: A better. Okay, because in in any way you have a smaller
23:16:300Michele De Carli: thickness of the gypsum board the gypsum board.
23:21:540Michele De Carli: Usually the land of the the land on the street
23:29:550Michele De Carli: in concrete, and it's nearly 1.2.
23:35:330Michele De Carli: What's the is 0 point 2, you know, for zoom right?
23:49:560Michele De Carli: The land of Egyptian Government's been operating plots.
23:54:105Michele De Carli: Okay?
23:55:440Michele De Carli: Which means that actually, the Egyptian word is
24:00:240Michele De Carli: not a very high conducting material.
24:04:310Michele De Carli: and of course, by adding 12 instead of 18, then it means that you have less.
24:10:480Michele De Carli: which is nice to probably the solution. Is this a right hand, or okay, this evening? That system?
24:25:937Michele De Carli: This is me.
24:28:340Michele De Carli: Yes, that is because we
24:37:526Michele De Carli: well, there are several. There are several answers for that. 1st of all, we wanted to use the race floor for
24:46:89Michele De Carli: hosting. Okay. The question, did you did you understand the answer? The question, no, okay. Sorry. Okay. So the question was, why in our laboratory, our living up. And we are we. We are working with the radiance ceiling. Okay? So in in that laboratory that we have
25:05:190Michele De Carli: where 3 students will leave hopefully from next year
25:09:450Michele De Carli: next academic year. There is a radiant ceiling, not a radiant floor. Okay? So the 1st part is that we have
25:21:241Michele De Carli: decided to use since the original idea was to use this
25:30:505Michele De Carli: building as a lab. So we wanted to have a very
25:38:150Michele De Carli: Eddie.
25:48:140Michele De Carli: flexible. Okay, space with also flexible. So the 1st point was, we wanted to have a raised floor in order to host all the wires, the which were connected, the different
26:06:40Michele De Carli: probes, okay? And so on. And also in case we wanted to change a little bit as a mock up building
26:16:830Michele De Carli: the 1st point. This is so. That is why, since we use the race floor we then consider to install the radiant ceiling.
26:26:86Michele De Carli: The second point is that the radiant floors are very well established solution. And the technology for the residential buildings
26:37:404Michele De Carli: radiance ceiling is not that used as technology for the for the residential building.
26:46:910Michele De Carli: but it can be used also for residential. We see when we talk about the performance, the the heating and cooling output of the solution. Okay? So the thermal
26:58:58Michele De Carli: output, we will see
27:00:230Michele De Carli: pros and cons of the floors and the Embassy. Okay? And so these are the main, the 2 main reasons.
27:14:940Michele De Carli: yes.
27:18:530Michele De Carli: Okay. So this is yes.
27:28:910Michele De Carli: If we are using a region system and this rest laws, don't they lose their
27:38:50Michele De Carli: folder be like removed in order to work.
27:41:990Michele De Carli: Each one is a separate secret, I know.
27:47:500Michele De Carli: Yes.
27:49:130Michele De Carli: So from this point of view, I think it's quite complicated. Okay, to connect all this, all the ties in as different cities. So my feeling is that they are not so.
28:00:940Michele De Carli: They are not. So. Let's say, charming technology. Okay? But maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.
28:11:350Michele De Carli: not not people.
28:14:220Michele De Carli: The. They are trying to propose this solution. Okay, but I I've never seen so many applications on this.
28:22:835Michele De Carli: So
28:26:260Michele De Carli: okay, then, here you can see another type of radiance system. Okay, it has been also proposed at the beginning of 2,000. It's the so-called radian capillary system. Okay, there's a very, very small pipes of a few millimeters
28:46:00Michele De Carli: here. You see, there is a a the
28:50:130Michele De Carli: okay. In this case, you can see the the pipes are okay, are doing like an S shape, okay, pattern. And in this case, you can see. Instead, they are on. They have a supply and return, let's say.
29:10:200Michele De Carli: larger pipes, which are behaving like manifold. Okay. And then the the water is distributed is this very small pipe for 3, 4 per minute? Okay?
29:22:900Michele De Carli: And so they are proposed.
29:26:680Michele De Carli: both on the with the gypsum board. But they are also proposed. In case you want to use like
29:37:340Michele De Carli: liquid plaster. Okay, liquid plasters. So you can. You can fix them on the wall on the roof.
29:47:640Michele De Carli: and then with the with the liquid, the plastic, you can. Okay, you can. You can. It's a spray. Okay, on top of this. Okay?
29:57:390Michele De Carli: They are not so very much widely used, but they are also proposing them up. Okay,
30:08:610Michele De Carli: last, but not least.
30:10:850Michele De Carli: for office buildings, for hospitals, and so on. There is also the possibility to use steel sheet. Okay? So metal elements, metal plates, elements. Okay? So in this case, you have radiance system
30:27:80Michele De Carli: with metal elements. Usually they are perforated. Okay? And since you have an insulation layer which is usually
30:36:831Michele De Carli: fiber insulation layer, okay on top. Okay? Then, in this case they act also as acoustic dampers. Okay? So they have also acoustic performance, so they can absorb the inner noise so as to make the the room more comfortable.
30:58:450Michele De Carli: I have to. I have to admit. I have to say that there are also solutions preferred solutions also for Gypsyn Road.
31:05:590Michele De Carli: It's okay for the acoustic absorption. And to make the the the room more comfortable from the acoustic point. Of
31:16:850Michele De Carli: okay, of course, in this case the cost.
31:20:800Michele De Carli: the radiance ceiling they cost more than the radiance.
31:27:50Michele De Carli: Okay, so just to give you a very rough cost.
31:31:590Michele De Carli: maybe it's not updated. No, sorry for sure it's not updated. Okay? But let's say that some years ago the regular phone where
31:43:360Michele De Carli: that's you can take it as relative cost. Radiant flow was 50 units per square meter, hey?
31:52:327Michele De Carli: For radial ceiling you had more or less 70 80 80,
31:57:840Michele De Carli: you know, stairs everywhere. So let's see
32:00:860Michele De Carli: more than 1.5 times the premium floor. And for metal solutions you have like, 100 5,100
32:10:590Michele De Carli: needs.
32:13:70Michele De Carli: Yeah, anywhere in the constant solution. Right?
32:18:590Michele De Carli: Take the cost just as relative. Okay? So you can say that the radiance ceilings cost wise no sorry 1.5 with the medium floor and the metal solutions they are call. They cost
32:38:220Michele De Carli: 50% more or 2 times. Radiant city with Egypt. Okay.
32:47:924Michele De Carli: they are not updated cost. Okay? So I don't know how much is the cost today. How much do they cost?
32:55:150Michele De Carli: See me now?
32:56:750Michele De Carli: Imposebula. Casa.
32:58:760Michele De Carli: Yes. Okay.
33:00:540Michele De Carli: So it's an updated figure. Okay? So you can take it as updated figure. Of course, you have to put the vat on top. Okay?
33:07:580Michele De Carli: And okay.
33:10:690Michele De Carli: So okay. So we have seen the different technology. So we can have a first, st let's say.
33:22:380Michele De Carli: comparison. What is?
33:24:862Michele De Carli: Yes, we have a comparison, a cost comparison. Radio pro is much cheaper than the other solutions. Okay?
33:34:561Michele De Carli: here you can see the different
33:37:890Michele De Carli: what? Which are the characteristics? I said. The main characteristics of one solution with respect to the other.
33:44:953Michele De Carli: So usually, as I told you, radiant floors. Sorry, yes, radiant floors they present greater diameters than radiant ceilings. Okay, so radiant floors you have.
34:00:631Michele De Carli: Radiance. Ceiling is in the range of 6, 8 okay? Sometimes that usually 6 8 okay.
34:11:800Michele De Carli: of course, you have to think about that. The gypsum board is more or less
34:19:620Michele De Carli: the the area of the gypsu board is, let's say, half of this little bit more, but say, half of this is there.
34:30:520Michele De Carli: and you have the patch behind this you want.
34:36:840Michele De Carli: So usually the secret like one secret per chipsum board. Okay? Which means that the
34:45:510Michele De Carli: leg, the overall length of the pipe makes it small, is much smaller than the circuit that you have on the floor, and when you, when you lay down the pipe into the floor. Okay, usually you can have a larger ceiling, which means a greater area. Okay? Which is okay, because having also a greater diameter. Okay, it means that you can.
35:13:80Michele De Carli: Okay, have a larger space to eat.
35:16:910Michele De Carli: Okay?
35:18:930Michele De Carli: So you have smaller diameter, more
35:27:820Michele De Carli: okay, smaller than a meter. It means it means that and you have also smaller flow rate in the region
35:43:900Michele De Carli: per square meter. Right? So you have.
35:50:68Michele De Carli: You have smaller diameter, which means
35:58:540Michele De Carli: you have a smaller delta. T, okay, so since you have a smaller diameter
36:06:470Michele De Carli: and you have a smaller sleep with, oh, sorry, a. A shorter sleep width with respect to the floor, where you have a larger diameter and then longer sleep with. Okay.
36:19:860Michele De Carli: The maslow rate is smaller in each silk and due today. Also today,
36:31:610Michele De Carli: small area of the secrets of the gypsum boards elements. Okay, that leads to a smaller.
36:42:190Michele De Carli: a smaller delta. T, okay, so the temperature difference between supply return. So
36:48:920Michele De Carli: the water is entering in the in the water.
36:54:500Michele De Carli: That is very now, don't we can use it anymore.
37:13:270Michele De Carli: And this is a simplified pattern, but it's not that
37:16:970Michele De Carli: be different from this. So here you have a what I mean.
37:24:810Michele De Carli: And here you have the workout.
37:29:490Michele De Carli: Right?
37:31:500Michele De Carli: So in Egyptian world this is the typical pattern you have. Okay?
37:36:634Michele De Carli: This is called supply.
37:46:400Michele De Carli: And this signature in the standards it's called the
37:57:990Michele De Carli: Wise Vnr.
38:04:610Michele De Carli: as you, too.
38:06:120Michele De Carli: Beef.
38:09:740Michele De Carli: No, it's not like that. But no, it's because it's the original standard was German. The the M. 1264 was a was audi, and it's for love. Okay? So anyway, this is the plan.
38:27:260Michele De Carli: Of course
38:28:510Michele De Carli: it is still it is still the temperature of the of the infrastructure, anyway. Supply in return. Okay, in this case. So
38:41:389Michele De Carli: why, in a, when you have a reserve floor, you can.
38:46:890Michele De Carli: as you will do in your in your, in your house. Okay, in your pictures of real life out
38:55:60Michele De Carli: you can have a a distribution which is
39:03:730Michele De Carli: any. Okay, I just put like this in this stage. You have also, yeah, you have larger area, okay, larger diameter. So that means that you are in principle allowed to use larger Delta. P.
39:20:420Michele De Carli: Okay, so in
39:29:510Michele De Carli: so in heating the Delta T on the floor
39:33:110Michele De Carli: historically, could be even greater than 7. Okay. In the previous
39:39:380Michele De Carli: standards it was the recommended value was 9. Even so, you could have 9
39:45:310Michele De Carli: degrees temperature difference between supply return today. The recommended is between 3 and 5, I think also 7. But usually it's between 3 and 5. Okay.
39:56:920Michele De Carli: In the city you will not reach
40:01:10Michele De Carli: more than 2 3 degrees temperature difference between supply return on the water side. Okay for cooling.
40:11:941Michele De Carli: We will see why. Okay, we will have
40:16:830Michele De Carli: a greater Delta T in the ceiling then. But in the ceiling, basically, it doesn't change that much. Okay, but for heating, you can see we will have a lower, a smaller Delta. T, okay, we will see that one. Let's say that usually the Delta T is very limited in the ceiling. Okay? And in in the floor. It could be a little bit larger pool.
40:41:50Michele De Carli: Okay, what is important? The in
40:49:200Michele De Carli: both system. We need the peripheral free. Okay, we we talk about that later. Okay, so
40:58:300Michele De Carli: like an elastic layer, which is, allowing the expansion and contraction of the of the of the sea, of the radiant floor, but also of the radiance ceiling. Okay? Also, in the case of radiance ceiling, they need to consider this okay elastic material. To be installed between the ceiling and the
41:21:510Michele De Carli: and the wall, or you can finish the wall a little bit. Okay below the below the the ceiling. Okay, you cannot do that when you use the radium floor. Okay? But for the ceiling you can have the the ceiling. Okay, which is good to move. Okay?
41:40:314Michele De Carli: Instead using the peripheral stream.
41:45:361Michele De Carli: You can use sound, absorbing material characteristics in the ceiling on the floor. Not
41:53:540Michele De Carli: and yeah, of course, for radiant floor. You need to have the acoustic, anyway, for
42:03:630Michele De Carli: even if it's not radiant floor, you need to consider the decoupling okay of the mechanical decoupling for tapping rocks.
42:12:810Michele De Carli: this is a very 1st thing. You can see. This is what you can. This is, you can see how you can do that. You have to put this material, which is a plastic material.
42:25:200Michele De Carli: and you have to use it also from one room to another. Okay, it's very important.
42:31:230Michele De Carli: And also in case of stairs, cons, and so on you, too. Okay, every time you need the, you need to decouple the mechanically, the the radiant for or the the speed with the with the any structure. Okay?
42:47:756Michele De Carli: So you can see here how you can do that.
42:51:800Michele De Carli: for you can also use the radiance system on the walls. Okay, it's not very common.
42:58:970Michele De Carli: But in principle you can do that. Okay, here, this is the the test room that we can have a okay, we have a test room where we can control all the all the different surfaces. Okay?
43:13:360Michele De Carli: And in this case, you can see, we have different system. But basically, they are
43:22:520Michele De Carli: the same system or similar system that we have on the ceiling. Okay, you can do that on the wall. Okay, it's Egyptian board with the with the behind the pipes. Okay?
43:37:500Michele De Carli: And of course, in all the system you have the installation. Then.
43:47:300Michele De Carli: yeah, yes. So this is how you can. use this the, the.
43:56:960Michele De Carli: The radiant was okay, so basically, they are exactly what we have seen. So with the with plaster or with the the
44:07:380Michele De Carli: We did then.
44:09:930Michele De Carli: So the meal cluster, or the or the plate cluster with the the types in the, in the installation layer.
44:20:307Michele De Carli: There are also some potential solutions for hosting the pipes in the in the structure.
44:29:910Michele De Carli: I mean, the radiant walls are not very common, because, 1st of all, you might have limits due to furniture.
44:40:190Michele De Carli: You might have limits if you want to hang up something
44:45:854Michele De Carli: but it's an interesting solution. If you want to
44:50:680Michele De Carli: insulator building on the inner side. Okay, on the inner wall.
44:55:30Michele De Carli: Then you have any way to make a structure to insulate the inner wall. And in this case you you put, anyway, a a.
45:05:200Michele De Carli: A gypsu board. Okay? So why not?
45:09:280Michele De Carli: You put a gypsum board with the pipes inside it. So in that case you will have, anyway, the insulation plus the new, the new heating and cooling system. Okay, so that is a solution
45:25:920Michele De Carli: for my point of view, which is interesting for the internal installation. Of course, this is my perspective. Okay.
45:36:910Michele De Carli: I might be right. I might be wrong.
45:39:820Michele De Carli: Many people think that I am wrong. But I, anyway, I keep, think
45:45:260Michele De Carli: that it is a good idea. Okay.
45:48:30Michele De Carli: in my perspective, it is easier and more useful to insulate on the inner
45:54:810Michele De Carli: on the inner side of the of the wall. The buildings. It's cheaper at the end of solution. Okay?
46:01:380Michele De Carli: But of course, there are some points. Okay, and this solution, if you work on the inner side of the building. Okay, it is, of course, a suitable technology for this kind of of retrofits. Okay?
46:17:90Michele De Carli: But again, there are not so many people involved like myself. So you are. You are free to
46:24:40Michele De Carli: to decide that this is a great idea, or it's shit. Okay? So it's up to you.
46:29:500Michele De Carli: Okay, I think it's a great idea.
46:32:680Michele De Carli: And okay, this is the
46:38:10Michele De Carli: This is, I made a very disaster
46:42:120Michele De Carli: picture because I knew that there was this picture here. So these are the basically how you usually lay out the pipes in a radiant floor. So you can see here, for instance, here, in this case, you have one secret. Okay? You can see you have just one secret for one room. Okay?
47:01:683Michele De Carli: It is possible. Why not? Or you can add 2 different which the circuits could be
47:10:860Michele De Carli: similar in area. Okay, surface. Or they can be also different in the surface and also in pipes. And we will see that. Why, okay, you will see why it could be a possible, a possible solution. This one instead of 2
47:30:230Michele De Carli: equal. Having dividing the only 2. You can only see that
47:37:180Michele De Carli: this is a very important sketch. Okay? Because this is how you work with the radiant technologies. Okay?
47:46:130Michele De Carli: So you can see you have a manifold.
47:51:970Michele De Carli: hey? Let's see this one, and then we'll go back.
47:55:543Michele De Carli: So basically you have.
47:59:40Michele De Carli: yeah, you see, these are the major pipes, the major lines, okay? Or the secondary circuit. Let's say,
48:10:40Michele De Carli: with the secondary circuit, which are larger pipes. You are
48:13:620Michele De Carli: entering into the 2 manifolds. Okay, so
48:17:360Michele De Carli: here you have the supply, and here you have the return.
48:22:720Michele De Carli: you can. The the manifolds are. Let's say you will see that with the Pennsylvania. But basically they are.
48:29:310Michele De Carli: They are
48:31:890Michele De Carli: systems which, where you have a large diameter to distribute the water, and then the water is
48:41:360Michele De Carli: is going in the different in the different secrets. Okay.
48:47:70Michele De Carli: so we might have one secret in a room, 2 secrets in another. Okay, or one bedroom. Okay, it depends. You will see how to decide that you have one or more secret in the difference.
49:02:480Michele De Carli: The manifold could be in plastic or in metal material. Okay, what is usually important is that you have 1st of all, the automatic venting. Okay? So automatic venting means that this is an automatic.
49:24:720Michele De Carli: they which is purging all the air. Okay? Because you have to think about that when you when you are
49:33:830Michele De Carli: when you are letting the water entering the circuit. Okay? Because, of course, you have to. You need water. Okay.
49:43:38Michele De Carli: before starting the plant, but usually you use the water in pressure. Also, before laying before laying there
49:52:630Michele De Carli: the concrete layer. Okay, in order to see if there are some
49:57:332Michele De Carli: face. Okay, usually there are not. But it might be okay. So before once you once you install
50:06:130Michele De Carli: when you lay once you lay down the the pipes. Okay? Usually before what you do you, you put the pipes in pressure in order to see if there are okay, losses of water, and you can do it with water, or also by air. Okay.
50:22:161Michele De Carli: we've compressed there, and you and you and you check if there are some losses on
50:28:872Michele De Carli: so at the end you connect the pipes. Okay with the different starting and return
50:39:40Michele De Carli: alright
50:43:510Michele De Carli: secrets. Okay? Usually, you need flow meters. So these are flow meters. Okay? And we will see why it is important to have, because in that case, I mean, they are not laboratory flow meters. Okay, but they can. They allow you to adjust the flow rate on site? Okay? Based on your recommendations? Okay? Because what you do, you size the system you select.
51:09:870Michele De Carli: Let's say the the number of secrets that you need for each room, and at the end, okay, you will have you
51:22:601Michele De Carli: calculate. You will estimate which is the flow rate for each flow which will be different. Okay? Or might be different, or will be different.
51:32:520Michele De Carli: And and it's important to have them on board in order to see how much fluorine, more or less okay, even if it if they even if they are not.
51:41:710Michele De Carli: I mean so well accurate. But yeah, anyway, accurate enough for the the 1st idea.
51:49:796Michele De Carli: And in this case, you can see these are this can be closed or open. Okay? And they can be also automaticized. Okay, so you can also
52:01:550Michele De Carli: have some electric
52:07:40Michele De Carli: motor which can close and and open this. This devices here in order to allow the flow rate or not.
52:19:320Michele De Carli: Okay.
52:27:570Michele De Carli: yes. What is important is that this venting should be put on the
52:34:40Michele De Carli: top side of your secret. Okay, with the radium floor. It is sufficient to put it where you are. You have the
52:41:790Michele De Carli: the collector, the the manifold. Okay
52:44:560Michele De Carli: for radiant ceiling. You have to be above the okay height of the
52:49:920Michele De Carli: all cities, because you need to avoid air in order to have a proper circulation. Okay.
53:01:340Michele De Carli: yeah. So here you can see what you can have as a distribution. You can see that in this case, for instance, you have. These are the 2 main pipes. Okay, which are which are.
53:15:560Michele De Carli: I think, drove it.
53:22:360Michele De Carli: Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.
53:26:610Michele De Carli: So these are the to look at.
53:29:440Michele De Carli: And these are the 2 main secrets? Okay?
53:33:80Michele De Carli: So we have 2 greater diameters. These 2 are greater diameters. And and then we have the different sequence going the different rooms.
53:43:382Michele De Carli: So you can see that this room is larger. Okay, I will highlight with the pointer.
53:49:770Michele De Carli: This is a larger room with different number of secrets. Here we have one secret here, one. And here, okay.
53:56:580Michele De Carli: And of course.
54:04:290Michele De Carli: and let this you. Okay.
54:09:560Michele De Carli: Magic kind of magic. So you can see.
54:15:800Michele De Carli: you have the same supply temperature, which is extremely important. We will see that when we are going to size the system. Okay, since you have one pipe.
54:26:160Michele De Carli: Okay? Which is providing the water into this element. Okay, the supply temperature. Okay, is fixed for each manifold.
54:41:400Michele De Carli: You have one supply time, virtue.
54:45:220Michele De Carli: Alright.
54:48:650Michele De Carli: Okay. And these are the 2 tech types of streets that you can use. This is the quite standard street. Okay? Which is the one which has been used for
55:03:60Michele De Carli: scientists, let's say
55:08:200Michele De Carli: And this is how you do that. It's not so liquid. Okay? But so you have to work hard in order to have a good screen. Okay?
55:21:278Michele De Carli: And it takes time
55:24:661Michele De Carli: you can also work with the liquid self which are quicker to be to be to be installed. And also you can have a smaller thickness compared to the usual screen. Right? So let's say that here you have. Really, you need the 6 cm, at least in this case, you can. Okay, depending on the type of street. But you can.
55:53:60Michele De Carli: I have from 2 to 4 centimeters. Okay? It's you're more compact. You can have also a good better contact with the type. So these are very good. Very. I mean, proven solutions. Right?
56:16:420Michele De Carli: Okay. Now, that is all. For the for the let's say, and
56:29:220Michele De Carli: typologies of the radiance. So we have now an idea. Okay, on how the radiance systems are made. Okay, we have seen the different solutions. And in principle, we can talk about radar floor, radiance, ceiling and radio.
56:44:450Michele De Carli: Okay?
56:46:138Michele De Carli: So now, what is important is to enter into the he transferred
56:58:685Michele De Carli: the way the heat is transferred through the radiance. Okay? And when we talk about the heat transfer, we have to think about that. Basically, we have a structure, because at the end. The radiance system is a structure
57:13:990Michele De Carli: which is exchanging heat with the room. So in other words, we have a again
57:23:620Michele De Carli: the other systems. We have a heat exchanger, unique
57:29:480Michele De Carli: water to room. You could change it.
57:35:90Michele De Carli: And in this case we have the the we have larger or smaller.
57:45:530Michele De Carli: So you could. Okay?
57:48:340Michele De Carli: But in any case, and we have, we, we may have a different entity between supply.
57:55:800Michele De Carli: Okay? But basically, we have a heat exchanger. In this case, we use the mean logarithmic temperature. Okay, so different between the water. And okay. So in this case the the
58:14:20Michele De Carli: the exchange between the water and the room is described by the mink.
58:29:180Michele De Carli: the mean logarithmic, different standard
58:32:530Michele De Carli: with like that. Or, okay. Anyway, you can change it. Okay, it's like the commutative, the
58:41:530Michele De Carli: property. Okay, rule that. You can change the word. But the, the, the meaning is this, okay, okay. So what we have to think about is that we have an external wall
58:54:340Michele De Carli: we need to see. We need to fulfill the
58:58:890Michele De Carli: heating and cooling load of the room. So we have the desire, a lot.
59:05:110Michele De Carli: And we want to face this loan by having water circulating in the pipes
59:10:760Michele De Carli: and exchanging they to the structural element that you have. Okay, which could be discrete the Egyptian board
59:19:330Michele De Carli: and solving.
59:22:200Michele De Carli: So 1st of all, what can we say? Well.
59:29:722Michele De Carli: we have to consider, okay, that the
59:42:964Michele De Carli: we have to consider that we have a radiance there. So called the radiant surface.
59:53:600Michele De Carli: But actually, this is not only radiant. It's so radiant. But basically, we are exchanging heat, both prior
00:04:800Michele De Carli: convection and radiation. Okay, so we have a conduct, a convective and radiant heat exchange between the surface and the room.
00:16:933Michele De Carli: Yeah, you can see the benefits of the radiant system. Okay, the radiant system has a great positive aspect, which is
00:27:884Michele De Carli: established, or it is well recognized.
00:32:52Michele De Carli: Which is to have a very small stratification. Okay? So Regan systems are, let's say,
00:41:50Michele De Carli: technologies, which are. Let's say, with respect to the all the other technologies for for heating and cooling, they have a very small
00:54:230Michele De Carli: certification, or even negligible certification. Okay, which you have in other cases.
01:03:230Michele De Carli: but yeah, so what you have to think about is that you have radiant that surface at a certain temperature.
01:10:500Michele De Carli: and these surfaces is changing with the the.
01:14:380Michele De Carli: But, on the other hand, this surface gets
01:18:30Michele De Carli: this temperature because you have heat conduction
01:22:00Michele De Carli: to the conversion between the pipes and the surface.
01:29:60Michele De Carli: So how can you? How can you?
01:40:240Michele De Carli: How can you log in? How can you?
01:43:750Michele De Carli: consider a radiance. Well, radiance system. If I make it a section.
01:52:220Michele De Carli: let's imagine to consider a unusual
01:55:950Michele De Carli: like in this case, every usual regular floor. Okay, we said that we have the start. Trans, we might have some light feeling. Okay, for hosting the pipes. Cables is not what we have seen in the last lecture. Okay.
02:15:880Michele De Carli: And here we have the types.
02:21:740Michele De Carli: But this is the cross section. And then we have on top definition button.
02:25:650Michele De Carli: Okay?
02:27:340Michele De Carli: So usually, if you want to estimate the heat flow between the water and the structure usually.
02:35:345Michele De Carli: You can consider.
02:38:590Michele De Carli: You make it simple that
02:43:810Michele De Carli: the temperature, even though there might be a temperature difference between one pipe and the other. Okay.
02:51:280Michele De Carli: you can consider that this, the the heat flow between one pipe and the other is good. Okay? So you have no
03:02:540Michele De Carli: heat flow between one pipe and the other. So that means that you can
03:09:830Michele De Carli: consider Justin. The section of one pipe they
03:19:590Michele De Carli: spacing between pipe is for the P. Okay, the letter.
03:25:400Michele De Carli: So you can consider the pipe we vet
03:32:150Michele De Carli: they? So this this case, this, the the the
03:39:860Michele De Carli: our model. Okay, it's a wide. It's a, it has a width of P. Okay?
03:49:507Michele De Carli: So we can consider just one pipe.
03:52:710Michele De Carli: We can proceed here.
03:56:760Michele De Carli: Our model. Okay, which is
04:07:160Michele De Carli: okay.
04:08:740Michele De Carli: Here is half of tea, and here you have half of.
04:12:760Michele De Carli: And this is, you can see this is one of the possibilities you can do. You can do a a 2D very conductive simulation. Okay? Similar to what you have done. In how many of you did the energy raise your hand.
04:30:870Michele De Carli: Not so many. Okay, so you can ask them, okay, look at them. And you can ask them how to do that.
04:36:90Michele De Carli: So basically, you have a finite element or finite difference method.
04:42:640Michele De Carli: where you can build up this structure, which is a cross-sectional as area of your structure.
04:52:324Michele De Carli: You have the pipe. This is the layer, the installation layer. Here is the concrete. Here you have the issue, the finishing material.
05:00:830Michele De Carli: And this is the Z, okay, the structural. Z, here you have insulation. Okay?
05:07:362Michele De Carli: What you do. Basically you have.
05:12:240Michele De Carli: Since you are, you are considering that you have no heat flow between one pipe and another.
05:21:610Michele De Carli: you have adiabatic condition here. There's boundary condition and adiabatic condition here. Okay, because you consider to have the same temperature between this between this pipe. And this one, okay, this is
05:34:530Michele De Carli: a user shop. Essentially, then what you should consider is on top and below. Okay.
05:44:110Michele De Carli: they also the other boundary conditions. We will look at them in the next
05:50:30Michele De Carli: the next one in the next slide. Okay?
05:53:190Michele De Carli: Oh, you guys think it was a dove
05:59:970Michele De Carli: crashing with the the glass. Okay,
06:05:320Michele De Carli: So here, you can see.
06:07:110Michele De Carli: this is the temperature factor. Okay? So here, you can see, we have more or less 40 degrees inside of the pipe. Okay?
06:15:949Michele De Carli: You cannot see that here. But basically here you are considering also the
06:27:490Michele De Carli: thermal resistance. Okay of the pipe. You can also consider the inner convection
06:35:680Michele De Carli: thermal resistance. Okay of the water.
06:39:132Michele De Carli: And you can see that here, then, the temperature is distributed. What you can see is that basically this kind of system. Okay.
06:48:480Michele De Carli: you see, the effect of the insulation.
06:51:390Michele De Carli: The effect of the installation is basically that the
06:54:770Michele De Carli: they, they, they have a stop in the flow, so you can see that
07:01:290Michele De Carli: the yellow part here you have the. This
07:04:860Michele De Carli: is a a lighter color. Okay, so here is from green to like blue.
07:12:950Michele De Carli: And here is that roof. Okay? So
07:16:470Michele De Carli: so you can see that basically, most of the heat is going on top.
07:21:730Michele De Carli: As a matter of fact, you can see, this is the specific heat which is delivered. In this case you can see you have 100 more or less watts per square meter. So these are Watts per square meter.
07:37:700Michele De Carli: I know
07:45:360Michele De Carli: 100, and here on the bottom you have 13
07:54:430Michele De Carli: also. What's per square medium?
07:58:710Michele De Carli: So the water has to deliver
08:01:540Michele De Carli: 113 watts per square meter, 100 goes above.
08:09:440Michele De Carli: 13 goes below. Okay, so let's say that
08:15:90Michele De Carli: 90, 99, sorry, 90, 91% of the heat is going on the upper room.
08:26:240Michele De Carli: and 8, 9% is going in the bottom in the normal room. Okay, this is the body glosses.
08:38:180Michele De Carli: Okay of the radiance system. Okay, as you have
08:42:569Michele De Carli: for the radiant floor, correct for the radiator.
08:45:760Michele De Carli: And in case, it's you, it's faced outside also for the convectivity convention.
08:54:983Michele De Carli: For the phone console.
08:59:319Michele De Carli: So what I want to show you here is that basically the 2D,
09:05:90Michele De Carli: so the the 2 dimension problem is mainly localized here. Okay.
09:12:870Michele De Carli: also here on the surface, you might have a 2D, usually. Okay.
09:23:90Michele De Carli: you can have, let's say, from 0 point 5 degrees C, as temperature difference between
09:30:840Michele De Carli: the the central point and the average vitas. And then
09:42:850Michele De Carli: from 0 point 5 to let's say
09:47:189Michele De Carli: 2 degrees. Okay, more or less. It depends on what.
09:52:29Michele De Carli: on the type of finishing material that you have. So it depends on the conductivity of this material. It depends also on the
10:00:310Michele De Carli: pipe spacing. Okay? So if you use 10 cm, the temperature, they are very similar. If you use 2030 cm as pipe spacing, then the difference in the temperature.
10:15:90Michele De Carli: and on this surface can be, let's say, 2 degrees. Yes.
10:25:900Michele De Carli: yes. So the I will. Highlight here. Okay.
10:33:930Michele De Carli: if this is the pipe, the pipe here you have, the greater we are in heating. Okay? So the greater temperature they are.
10:42:330Michele De Carli: In this case, you can see, you cannot see. You cannot notice a greater, a very great 2D pattern, because this is
10:52:720Michele De Carli: would.
10:54:210Michele De Carli: Okay. So root is usually oscillation material.
10:58:910Michele De Carli: so it will make it more
11:02:800Michele De Carli: uniform the temperature. But in case of ties, for instance, okay.
11:07:538Michele De Carli: you could have that on this. If you look at the at the temperature on the center in the center of the pipe. And in between the 2 pipes. Okay.
11:20:60Michele De Carli: the the temperature pattern will be
11:23:70Michele De Carli: as the temperature profile will be something like this.
11:27:960Michele De Carli: Okay? Which means that you have the minimum temperature is in the
11:35:20Michele De Carli: half this, the half distance between one pipe and the other, and the maximum temperature. Okay is on the
11:45:570Michele De Carli: on top of the pipe.
11:47:700Michele De Carli: Okay, of course, including vice versa. This is the coldest point, and these are the warmest point. Okay.
11:56:110Michele De Carli: of course, this is for the average.
12:01:50Michele De Carli: So here we are considering the
12:04:690Michele De Carli: the average condition average condition means
12:10:180Michele De Carli: if we look at the heat law in this point, we have there mean logarithmic temperature.
12:20:160Michele De Carli: Okay, so this is the water. If we want to calculate how much heat is transferred to the room.
12:28:340Michele De Carli: the water that we have to put here as temperature is the mean logarithmic temperature.
12:35:720Michele De Carli: Okay? And this temperature minus the room temperature is the
12:41:300Michele De Carli: mean logarithmic temperature difference. Okay, so if here we have 14 degrees.
12:48:350Michele De Carli: That means that 40 degrees is the mean logarithmic temperature in the pipes 40 times 40 times 40, minus 20. Okay.
13:00:30Michele De Carli: 20 degrees is the mean logarithmic temperature difference between the water and the room.
13:06:990Michele De Carli: Okay, this mirrored with temperature is there?
13:12:360Michele De Carli: Delta? Okay, divided by the okay. It's written here.
13:18:510Michele De Carli: Where is it written, okay, is the minimum gonna be temporarily different? Okay, okay,
13:30:170Michele De Carli: is it clear?
13:32:320Michele De Carli: Yes.
13:38:910Michele De Carli: it depends. It depends on. Yes. The the question is very interesting question, what happens if you don't insulate below the
13:47:440Michele De Carli: the, the, the pipes? Okay? Which is the effect that you have in the the bottom, the loss the heteroscopy.
13:58:410Michele De Carli: It depends a lot. It depends on the
14:01:320Michele De Carli: on the layer that you use on top.
14:04:260Michele De Carli: Okay, so if you use a
14:07:250Michele De Carli: that, so it depends on how how thick is the is the space, how how large is the space between the pipes and the and the and the
14:15:980Michele De Carli: in the room.
14:17:130Michele De Carli: It depends on the delta of the lambda of the material that you use on top.
14:30:745Michele De Carli: shh!
14:32:360Michele De Carli: I don't know if okay, I can tell you that. But I don't know if you
14:36:80Michele De Carli: yeah, I clicked. Okay, this is a steady state calculation, which means that this is
14:44:790Michele De Carli: what you get.
14:48:300Michele De Carli: If it's a constantly working the system. Okay?
14:56:390Michele De Carli: So this is a conservative or the maximum power that you that is going below your your system.
15:09:480Michele De Carli: If you work in dynamic conditions. So if if in real condition, where you usually heat
15:15:440Michele De Carli: up, and so usually
15:18:230Michele De Carli: not, all the heat is going downward. Okay, but you can part of the heat can be also
15:24:520Michele De Carli: can also go on the other side the same. As I told you when we have the radiator, it's not always. It's not only going outside also in this case. So this is a conservative figure, that's all
15:39:360Michele De Carli: you can expect to have smaller amount of people. Let's say, we have made some calculations. Okay, with this
15:49:690Michele De Carli: system with the. So if you use the, for instance, this solution here.
15:59:770Michele De Carli: that's right, use the solution here and you put the tile on on top.
16:05:180Michele De Carli: You can expect to have 20% of losses.
16:09:330Michele De Carli: Okay?
16:14:690Michele De Carli: But I mean, then you have to take into account how GPS, okay? And
16:21:700Michele De Carli: the cost benefit analysis. Okay?
16:25:273Michele De Carli: Let's say, 20% of the of losses.
16:29:430Michele De Carli: Okay, of course, you don't have to put, then on top the wood. And so if you want to use, if you don't want to reduce. And this is also you can have a smaller amount of insulation material. Okay? But
16:52:360Michele De Carli: If you put wood on top, then you have to increase like the big solution also.
16:57:550Michele De Carli: But let's say that with usual finishing materials, you can expect to have, let's say, from 8 to 15% of losses. Okay?
17:07:390Michele De Carli: Depending on the thickness of the of the of the installation.
17:15:450Michele De Carli: Yes. So this is again the average, the average section.
17:25:710Michele De Carli: This is the section responsible of the role overall heat flow.
17:29:770Michele De Carli: Then, of course, you have to think about that, you will have also.
17:34:560Michele De Carli: and in a temperature and the return temperature. So maximum temperature in heating minimum temperature, in heating
17:41:770Michele De Carli: minimum temperature in cooling maximum temperature in cooling. Okay, so you have to think about that. This pattern ease
17:51:50Michele De Carli: on the Me logarithmic section, but also on the supply section. And on return section. Okay, so, and
18:02:110Michele De Carli: I told you, you can have 3 to 5
18:08:30Michele De Carli: degree Ca supply return. Okay?
18:11:760Michele De Carli: So you can have.
18:14:720Michele De Carli: You can go. See here.
18:16:820Michele De Carli: Okay, on average, from the minimum to maximum. Also. Okay, 3 to 5
18:26:340Michele De Carli: degrees temperature difference between the maximum and the minimum. And then you can consider low the local.
18:34:135Michele De Carli: Okay?
18:43:570Michele De Carli: Okay, so how can you handle the problem?
18:49:510Michele De Carli: Okay?
18:50:540Michele De Carli: And then we stop and we come back to this point tomorrow, because,
18:57:925Michele De Carli: this is conceptually, is a little bit complicated. Okay?
19:03:70Michele De Carli: So this is what you can do with a detailed calculation to the detail calculation. But of course, usually you don't have to do that. Okay.
19:15:590Michele De Carli: here, you see, these are the boundary conditions. Okay? So in this surface. And this surface here. Okay, you can see there are 2
19:26:160Michele De Carli: thermal resistances. Okay, these 2 thermal resistances, or the reciprocal, which are, which is the overall heat transfer coefficient. Considering the convectivity transfer coefficient and rigging transfer coefficient. Okay.
19:43:660Michele De Carli: they are on the bottom part, on the bottom surface and on the upward surface. Okay?
19:50:640Michele De Carli: And these are, let's say, regular normal boundary conditions, the ones of you who made the
19:58:150Michele De Carli: time average calculation. They put boundary condition. Okay? So they put boundary condition. In this case we have to consider the combination of
20:09:140Michele De Carli: radiation, the change in conductivity, that change. Okay, depending on the layer of the
20:15:860Michele De Carli: of the of the surface.
20:19:630Michele De Carli: As I told you some acts ago. Okay, so now we are going to.
20:24:230Michele De Carli: Why, one of the preselectors, by the way.
20:26:820Michele De Carli: now we are going to make a recap of this, and we will see how to calculate it.
20:34:30Michele De Carli: Now this it either you work with a simplified, sorry, simplified method or not okay.
20:49:320Michele De Carli: On the upper side and on the lower side, you use the same
20:53:980Michele De Carli: conditions. This is just penal resistance. Okay, now, what you can do.
21:01:910Michele De Carli: you can consider here an equivalent layer. Okay, or pipe level.
21:08:230Michele De Carli: Okay? And you can.
21:11:980Michele De Carli: Someone made the calculations for you. Okay, you can consider
21:18:130Michele De Carli: from here to here the one d, the so a simple approach.
21:28:300Michele De Carli: And from here to here also on the approach. Okay, so basically.
21:34:220Michele De Carli: one d means the thickness divided by the lambda of the elements, or the combined elements that you have
21:41:930Michele De Carli: above or below your pipes. Okay? So here, basically, the the insulation, the slab, and so on.
21:49:870Michele De Carli: And you can consider the 2D concentrated, let's say, in an equivalent resistance from the water
22:01:270Michele De Carli: today, let's say equivalent layer. Okay, that you have
22:06:420Michele De Carli: in the center of the patch. Okay.
22:09:800Michele De Carli: so the 2D is included here somehow
22:14:860Michele De Carli: and is already calculated by someone.
22:19:870Michele De Carli: So in the standards you have simplified approach, which means basically that this today has been already okay.
22:32:740Michele De Carli: easily estimated. In order you to avoid to do every time the 2D calculation. Okay?
22:40:290Michele De Carli: Because it takes a lot of time.
22:43:70Michele De Carli: But basically, if you have, if you reach an equivalent definitely at the type level, okay.
22:50:390Michele De Carli: then you can consider almost one d.
22:54:70Michele De Carli: the transfer above and below your pipe. Level. Okay?
23:02:40Michele De Carli: And and this is what we are going to see tomorrow. Okay,
23:11:300Michele De Carli: so we can, we start from this point, okay? And we go to the next Wednesday. Okay, just a question. Is it? Okay? If on Wednesday
23:22:580Michele De Carli: we start earlier, 15 min is okay for you.
23:27:650Michele De Carli: Okay? So we start at the 2 15.
23:31:740Michele De Carli: Okay, okay, then. But tomorrow is is normal.
23:36:510Michele De Carli: Bye, okay?
23:39:800Michele De Carli: Okay? See you tomorrow.